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Posted by | Karma Specific Events |
![]() Camphor [Skyward 1.7k Clean] (#12577) View Forum Posts ![]() Posted on 2015-10-28 09:12:30 |
Karma Mechanic Summary 1. Remove the energy cost to kill or send away a cub younger than [suggested 12 months]. 2. Add achievement for high karma [suggested +1000] 3. Add achievement for low karma [suggested -1000] 5. Events that favor different levels of karma at different times. Mechanic Description To motivate players to utilize the lion deletion features, implement time-sensitive events that only trigger at a narrow karma range, such as a set of explore encounters, shop, or quests. Players will be motivated to kill or send away cubs as karma fodder, in order to "chase" the favored karma level. Even though we currently have the infrastructure for cub deletions, players are not using them because the opportunity cost is lower than the potential benefit gained from trying to sell the cub, which doesn't drain energy from the king. If they are unable to sell it, they can always delete later, as a last resort if den space is needed. If we remove the energy cost to delete cubs, add a time constraint, and motivation to get the karmic change, we can create a sink for undesirable cubs that are currently flooding the market. Thematically, it makes sense because tiny helpless cubs are not very difficult to kill. NCLs and adolescents should retain the energy cost to delete to prevent people from farming NCLs for karma fodder and to impose a time constraint on the deletion decision, so that players must quickly decide which cubs are worth keeping instead of hanging around to see if they will sell and creating a price block. Karma works especially well as a sink because it isn't subject to power creep. The karma can be moved both up and down along a scale without generating an excess sum of any economic asset. In order to stay within the specific range needed for the event, players will have to utilize the karma snake (Bonus SB sink) to check their level as they take explore actions that might push them one way or another. Suggested Amendment: Reduce the kill/send time to 4 months, so that players must decide whether or not to keep a cub before it is old enough to be traded, which prevents players from putting it up for sale just to fish around. The decision must be made before the cub is old enough to transfer. Suggested Annual Cycle Yearly quest event requiring +500 karma that runs for 5 days at the summer solstice and SB Shop requiring +800 to enter lasting for 24 hours on the day of the summer solstice. Same as above, but negative karma for the winter solstice. Twice a year quest event requiring between -500 and +500 karma to participate lasting three days around each of the equinoxes and SB Shop requiring between -100 and +100 karma to enter. Newbie friendly, since newbies are likely to be between those ranges anyway. Suggested Trimester Cycle A special event currency shop opens for 24 hours on the 15th of each month, which is only accessible as follows. +600 to +800 February August December -100 to +100 January March May July September November -600 to -800 April June October Or some other configuration of 6 neutral, 3 good, 3 evil, with no two months of the same alignment next to each other, so that players must actively change their karma every month to access the next month's shop. Intended Economic Effects Cub Market Essentially, we are creating a price floor for cubs, wherein the sale price of any cub cannot fall below the opportunity cost of deletion. Using a the price of a vulture egg as a comparison, 1 karma is currently worth about 15 SB, which would make the base price of a karma fodder cub about 75SB right now. Since the price floor is tied to karma rather than directly to SB, it will self-adjust for any SB inflation that might occur. What should happen is the divergence of two markets. At first high quality cubs with high stats rare markings will still retain the same prices as before while the price of undesirable cubs slowly increases to a point where it stabilizes with the value of 5 karma. (The value of karma should also be expected to increase when the events are introduced, and as cubs for karma fodder become less plentiful.) Cubs for karma fodder will all be sold at fairly quick turnover for the floor price. As the quantity of low quality cubs decreases, cubs that have only one or two desirable traits may also be deleted, decreasing the number of individuals able to pass a certain trait to future cubs and slightly slowing the depreciation of new rare traits. Player Behavior Since karma is currently not very valuable and there is no motivation not to breed other than the energy cost to the king, the rate of cubs currently being born is probably already close to the maximum rate allowed by the game mechanics. Therefore, we shouldn't see an increase in the number of cubs being born even if we add more incentive to breed. The people who are willing to mass breed have already gotten away from using the game as a roleplay experience, and probably won't have an issue with cubs being deleted. Those same players are also the most likely to try to take maximum economic advantage of site events, such as the karma shops, and are therefore also most likely to chase karma. Hopefully, this will lead to the decision to self-delete without even putting cubs on the market, which will increase the price and rarity of markings dramatically because the individual player's valuation of cubs is subject to power creep. (If you already have 4 lilacs, another one might not seem worth the effort.) In addition, by creating twice and many neutral events as good and evil events, the new features scale by difficulty. New players will start at zero karma, and it will take them a while to get out of the -100 to +100 zone, especially before they have learned which events affect karma and how, increasing the likelihood that they will be able to participate in the events. The more experienced a player is, the more likely he or she needs to dramatically shift karma in order to participate in the neutral events and the more likely he or she will have the resources to do so. However, if a player wants to roleplay a specific alignment, he or she still has the option of just waiting for an event that falls into his or her normal karmic range. Potential Issues In a worst case scenario, I have estimated very poorly and it turns out that we are currently nowhere near the maximum breeding rate and the new karma rewards are enough to push us there, so the number of cubs being created dramatically increases, and we cut the timing too short so that most players miss the deletion time limit and we end up with even more cubs than before. Second to worst case scenario, we spend a lot of time and resources developing this cool new feature and it doesn't affect the market at all, but at least we have cool new features to play with. There is also the potential for karma to turn into a runaway number, like what originally happened with stats, but the cycled events should prevent that from happening. The system is designed to be self-correcting, but if it becomes a problem, it can be solved with a cap. Other than that, the main problem is making things to put in the shops. |
Camphor [Skyward 1.7k Clean] (#12577) View Forum Posts ![]() Posted on 2015-10-28 09:12:42 |
Additional Discussion NOTE: This section is not part of the suggestion. Budgeting If karma sensitive events are already in development, this could easily be added in. Other than that, maybe use some of the things that were originally going to end up in the monthly event shops anyway? We could also try linking the availability of new breeding traits to the number of deletions by the new applicators in the karma accessed shop. It won't prevent rare and therefore desirable traits from getting more common with time (selective breeding just does that. See evolution.), but it will reduce the population by increasing the value of a deletion and therefore the floor price of cubs. Trait Rarity An interesting point that was brought up in the original thread linked the constant need for new markings and bases to runaway breeding. Cub deletion (this mechanic) is not going to solve that problem. First, you have to acknowledge that due to the way selective breeding works, (See Theory of Evolution) any heritable trait that the players deem desirable is going to eventually saturate the population. Many of the people who mass breed are aiming for a specific rare outcome, which is generated as a percentage of possible outcomes. Therefore increasing cub mortality, or the breeding cooldown, or anything else that limits the rate at which can be born will not decrease the number of unwanted cubs. It only slows the transaction rate, so that it takes more chronological time to wade through the same number of attempts. However, the female pass rate is much lower than the male's because her total reproductive capability is much lower. [15yrs / 2yrs per litter x 2 cubs per litter] Making rare traits only heritable from the mother will reduce the spread of the trait dramatically. If you limit the pass rate to 1/15, the total number of individuals with the trait will never increase and the only source of new lions with the trait would be site controlled raffles, that could be doled out according to actual userbase growth, to ensure that the trait retained the same level of rarity. 1/15 is probably a little extreme, but the idea is that if pass rate is limited, old markings can be re-released into the population to keep up with player population growth, which will make everyone happy without having to actually create new game assets, which will free up resources for developing things like a karma system. Original Idea Here: http://www.lioden.com/topic.php?id=304429206185&page=2 (a few posts down) ![]() Edited on 28/10/15 @ 19:36:25 by Springdragon (#12577) |
Blue Pigeon 🐦 (#68580)
Warrior View Forum Posts ![]() Posted on 2015-10-28 23:12:27 |
A wholehearted Support from me. I don't see any real objections to this as it would allow people to do what they want with their prides but also fix the cub economy, unlike other economy fixing suggestions. ![]() |
Xylax (#4)
![]() ![]() Dreamboat of Ladies View Forum Posts ![]() Posted on 2015-10-29 02:57:42 |
We are planning more karma expansions with more tiers :o But you have a lot of different suggestions packed here like karma cap etc which I do not agree with >< I think you could make the cycling shops and other ideas a separate suggestion ![]() |
Camphor [Skyward 1.7k Clean] (#12577) View Forum Posts ![]() Posted on 2015-10-29 05:00:15 |
The karma cap is only for programming practicality. Without a cap, there's a possibility it's going to run out of control, like what happened with the stats, but it doesn't affect the mechanic that much. Moving karma cap out of the summary and into the potential issues section. ![]() |
Before (#25066)
Cursed View Forum Posts ![]() Posted on 2015-10-29 07:18:47 |
Seems like a pretty neat and well-thought-out idea! Supported! Even if you don't like to participate in the economy, it seems there'd be plenty to enjoy even with just staying as good, evil, or neutral at all times. You'd only have to jump around if you want to participate in everything. One thing I'm confused about, though, is the runaway karma effect being talked about. If you say have a bunch of money, so you kill a whole ton of cubs, skyrocketing your Evil karma, wouldn't that make it so you could only participate in the winter solstice events? The good, neutral, and fairly evil events would be completely locked for you because you are so evil, requiring you to buy a Cleansing Ichor or A LOT of cubs to send to the Nature Reserve to participate in anything else. Sure, you'd skyrocket onto the "Most Evil" high score table, but at the cost of severely limiting your ability to participate in these events. ![]() |
Camphor [Skyward 1.7k Clean] (#12577) View Forum Posts ![]() Posted on 2015-10-29 12:10:38 |
You're right. It's designed to be self-correcting. (I also forgot about Cleansing Ichor.) ![]() |
Axel (#6627)
Pervert View Forum Posts ![]() Posted on 2015-10-29 23:46:37 |
I support it as a nice addition to the game. It gives us more things to do. But I do not believe that it will have any effect on the cub market, other than making it worse. Why? 1. We already have Personality bonuses, that negate the energy use for killing cubs. Do we see a change in the market? Yes. Is it good? No. Because I can see an increase of cub production and sale to be fodders for karma raise or drop. But compared to how many actually use these cubs, the production is too much. Thus, we can see an even greater inflation in the past months. There are lions on the market left and right, all cheap, hoping to be taken by someone who will chase or kill it for karma. Thus, the prices of lions is seeing an all-time low. 2. We already have a karma event, we call it karma interactions. All karma levels and karmas give different advantages already and yet there is no decrease of cubs on the market. If anything, it rose thanks to the karma fodders. 3. Cub prices could be potentially lowered in a drastic manner, even more than it is by now, thanks to people wishing to supply fodders but people eventually buy a few of these cheap cubs eventually. While being cheap in itself isnt a problem but prices should be adjusted to normal sellers instead of mass-sellers, where production cost is a lot higher than that of a mass-breeder's. They should be able to get a profit. 4. Cleansing Ichor and easy karma interactions in explore would mean that getting 500 karma in any direction is easier than what you think. One doesnt need to chase/kill 500 cubs for it. 5. Not many will go ahead and change from +500 to -500 for a karma event, if they can even buy the result or they can get the same or something close for their own karma in the next round when their karma gets the advantages. 6. It does not stop people from putting their mass-produced cubs on the market for higher prices at first to see if anyone would buy them. Once they reach 11 months, they would be killed or chased or sold as fodder. Still on the market = no change. 7. The goal is to make sure not as many cubs can reach the market to reduce the flood. Because once they are there, we are back at square one and we did nothing. Because cubs still flood it. Fodder cubs on trade are still part of the 'flooding' process. ![]() |
Camphor [Skyward 1.7k Clean] (#12577) View Forum Posts ![]() Posted on 2015-10-30 00:17:37 |
1. Not many players are taking advantage of the personality bonus because there are currently other bonuses that are better. Karma doesn't give any decent rewards right now. Also, as far as I can tell, we're already producing cubs at the maximum rate. See point 3. 2. Right now there is no motivation to change karma levels because all levels are favored equally. Players just pick a karma type and stay there. Also, see point 3. 3. The rate of price change hasn't changed. If we're already breeding at the maximum rate, the supply will continue to increase at a steady rate as new cubs are born faster than lionesses die, which means the price will continue to decrease at a steady rate, until it stabilizes. If the rate of breeding increased, we would see a change in the velocity of the price, not just the price itself. There is no evidence that we are not currently breeding at the maximum rate. If we are currently breeding at the maximum rate, the breeding rate is not able to increase no matter what incentives we introduce. This has already been addressed in the first paragraph of the "Potential Issues" section. 4. If 500 is not enough, we can increase that number. Also, I did forget that Cleansing Ichor exists. 5. Not everyone will go through the effort of collecting lionesses and breeding over and over and over in order to get that perfect set of markings, and not everyone is willing to quick trade on a premium and get the new marking first in order to start capitalizing on it either. It takes either a lot of trading skill or a lot of purchased GB, and a gamble that the initial investment can be earned back. My guess is the same group of people will be willing to chase karma levels for a special event. Even if you stay neutral, there is going to be at least 60 days between shops, when you're missing out on karma interactions in explore. If, like you said in point 4, it's not that difficult to change karma, these specific players will be willing to put in the effort in order to capitalize on the new items. Everybody else can just wait patiently for their designated event, so it's still fair for all karma styles. 6. The idea was to limit their time on the market to five days instead of anywhere from 12 to indefinitely. Suggested amendment, limit the free deletion to 4 days, so that players must decide whether to sell or keep a cub before being able to put it on the market. See potential issues section for cutting the time too short. 7. See point 6. ![]() Edited on 30/10/15 @ 07:18:46 by Springdragon (#12577) |
Axel (#6627)
Pervert View Forum Posts ![]() Posted on 2015-10-30 00:37:38 |
1&2. You are wrong. There are specific unique bonuses that they give, according to what kind of karma you have. Some interactions pop up if you have a specific karma only. Whereas some dont pick the Evil personality (because it is uncommon and doesnt really do much worth -see my suggestion about Balancing it), I do not see it changing, just because you remove the energy required for killing/chasing. Motivation will not change anymore than what we have now. There are already rewards for karma. And no, they are not equal. 3. It will decrease until it stabilizes, but what will you do once it cannot sink lower? How will you raise it back to make sure breeders actually get a profit? Because letting prices decrease until they can no more isnt the answer to the prices problem. People do not want it to decrease. 4. Still all too easy. Or make it too hard and casual players will be complaining. 5. If it is fair for all karma styles, than what kind of change are you expecting? And trust me, there are more people wanting a profit from breeding (wish to sell their cubs for a lot more than 75SB) than those who would go and mass-kill/chase cubs for karma if they can just trade the rewards with others. The current karma rewards dont seem to be appealing to most because they can just trade what they have. Sure, they cannot trade everything but they will get another advantage for their different karma in return. 6. In 5 days they are already flooding the market as it is. And if they get offers, they will be able to sell them as well instead for fodder. Still mass-selling of cubs. Still flooding. The time needs to be much shorter or one must find a way for people to not be able to present the cubs for the public to prevent the flood. ![]() |
Camphor [Skyward 1.7k Clean] (#12577) View Forum Posts ![]() Posted on 2015-10-30 01:27:59 |
1. The interactions are not time sensitive. You can get your karma up once, get the interactions that you need for however long it takes, and then go the other way and get the interactions you need, and then you're pretty much done with karma. 3. The entire point of tying cub price to the value of 5 karma is to create a price floor, so that the price of a cub cannot drop below that amount no matter how many cubs are on the market. The price floor be increased and decreased by changing the value of 5 karma. Supply side push is not the only economic tool we have. 4. Casual players are supposed to sit and wait for their event to come around. It's only the profiteers who will sink resources into chasing karma. See point 5. 5. It is fair for [u]casual[/u] players of all karma styles, because they are supposed to sit and wait for their event to come around, and they will each get their own event at different times. The goal is to entice intensive players to mass delete cubs, which are the same type of players who mass breed. That is why the events are spaced out in time, to encourage all the intensive players to try to get the same limited shop items all at once. If different items of equal value were available at the same time, intensive players could just trade with each other. By making only one type of item available at one time, all of them have to compete for the same thing, while still allowing the casual players to pick any karma style they want without favoring one over another. 6. Actually, I reneg that amendment. I forgot about the two markets model. The idea is to separate out the cub market for breeding which actually has value, and the cub market that exists because there's no benefit to deleting. The aim is to create a situation where any cub can be sold for a base price of X, to a player who is going to delete. If mass breeders can't get that price, they will self delete. The price won't drop no matter how many cubs are on the market. See point 3. ![]() |
Axel (#6627)
Pervert View Forum Posts ![]() Posted on 2015-10-30 05:10:34 |
1. And your suggestion is different from it because....? This would be more effective because....? Same thing as what we have right now and this clearly does not solve the issue. 3. Nobody want to see the price floor. Nobody wants to sell their cubs the lowest price possible because there is no limit on how low a price can get when it comes to mass-sellers. Plus, adjusting the price floor to mass-breeders -whose prices are already epic low- is a horrible idea, since you should favor regular breeders, who dont flood the market. If the price floor goes as low as not even enabling any kind of profit... the regular breeders will be completely hopeless. The goal should be to stop mass-selling. 4&5. You forget one thing: There are a ton of casual players who are mass-breeding/selling. Mainly because their activity does not enable them to progress in any other kind of gameplay (eg. collecting stats). Breeding does not need much if any time at all. So, you end up stopping 15-20% of the mass-breeders/sellers. But what about the rest? 6. While you search for price floor, you end up lowering the overall prices of cubs, though. You will ruin regular breeders/sellers, adjusting your economy to mass-producers instead. Is it truly beneficial for the market to be flooded by ridiculously cheap cubs, just to hope that some people will delete the cubs? In my opinion, this pretty much will backfire. Hard. ![]() Edited on 30/10/15 @ 12:12:01 by Axel (#6627) |
Camphor [Skyward 1.7k Clean] (#12577) View Forum Posts ![]() Posted on 2015-10-31 07:49:12 |
i think I see the problem in our communication. You have confused "price floor" with "market bottom". At this point in time, we have already discovered the market bottom. It is zero. A price floor is a price level that is consciously set to prevent the market bottom price from occurring no matter what happens to the supply and demand curve. Real World Examples: During the great depression, food prices hit market bottom. Nobody could sell their grain. Small farmers lost their land to large companies, who had the advantage of scale, but since nobody could make any money, nobody had money to spend either, prices continued dropping. Large corporate farms started burning their food instead of selling it, to try to drive prices up by decreasing the supply. Meanwhile, nobody could afford food, so a lot of people starved. See Grapes of Wrath for further flavoring. That is "market bottom". It is a price that is discovered based on supply and demand, and is what you are referring to. This was obviously a terrible outcome, so the government decided to implement a price floor on grain. We'll say 3 dollars per bushel. That means the government announces to all farmers that the government will purchase any grain they want to sell for 3 dollars per bushel, guaranteed. If the government is willing to pay 3 dollars per bushel, no other buyer anywhere will be able to get grain for less than the price of 3 dollars per bushel, because farmers won't sell because they could sell to the government for the higher price of 3 dollars per bushel. No matter how much surplus farmers have that year, the price of grain can never drop below 3 dollars per bushel, because the government has set a price floor. Other examples include convertible stock, a buyback option on private bonds, and minimum wage. This is what I'm suggesting. See also the Investopedia articles on Price Floor http://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/floor.asp If we create a price floor of 5 karma per cub, the price of a cub can never fall below 5 karma, which is a level that is artificially decided by staff, not a price that is naturally discovered through supply and demand. Additionally, staff would have the ability to directly control the price floor by increasing and decreasing the value of 5 karma through rewards provided in the events, which gives them an incredibly valuable tool for controlling the economy. If the price of 5 karma is 75sb, all cubs will be able to be sold for 75sb or higher, no matter how many cubs there are. If we have an event and the price of 5 karma goes up to 100sb, no cub can be sold for below 100sb, no matter how many cubs there are. Currently, the opportunity cost of a cub = 5 karma - 5% energy. Since the cost of energy is very high, the current effective price floor is below zero, which is the same as saying that we don't have one right now. Here is some math. 20 karma = 300sb [based on the price of a vulture egg] 5 karma = 75sb 100% energy = 2GB = 2800sb [based on the price of an energy boost] 5% energy = 140 sb Cub = 5 karma - 5% energy Cub = 75sb - 140sb = -65sb The floor price of cubs is currently -65sb. If we remove the energy cost, it looks like this: Cub = 5 karma = 75sb ![]() Edited on 31/10/15 @ 14:57:45 by Springdragon (#12577) |
Axel (#6627)
Pervert View Forum Posts ![]() Posted on 2015-10-31 21:18:21 |
Honestly, this is one of the worst comparisons I have seen on Lioden so far. There is a mighty difference between the food problem in the past and the economy issue we have currently on the game. Let me elaborate: For one, grain was necessary for survival and food, whereas buying cubs is not because you can produce them yourself. Which brings us to the greatest difference: In our case, the problem isnt that people are 'starving' because they cannot afford 'grain'. The problem is that EVERYONE can produce the grain in mass, thus there is no chance of starving. Everyone survives but grain selling brings no profit, even though you put much money in it. So, while the solution of the government buying up the grain would work in the situation when grain cannot be afforded by anyone, to sell it at a normal price in the end (because the government then would put it on the market for lower price for people to buy).... This however will not work here, since: a) you CANNOT find a price floor, since it isnt essential to buy cubs and karma doesnt have the same value for everyone (despite some items being priced by the system, the value of karma is in the eye of the beholder) b) what you intend as a normal price for karma fodder is not the normal and acceptable price for a cub meant to be kept in the pride c) it still will end up reducing overall prices of cubs, because karma fodder is still ridiculously cheap d) It still will favor mass-producers Thus, this solution -I am afraid- still is not adequate. ![]() Edited on 01/11/15 @ 04:21:56 by Axel (#6627) |
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