This is a complaint I have had with the site for some time. I do like the idea of a buff. It at least gives other people a chance at the stat game and not put steroid felines only at the top. The do need more competition.

I do have some problems with this post but that will come later when I have fully analyzed everything.

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Thanks for the input, Ambers! I'd love to hear the issues you have once you've gotten them sorted. ^^ I feel like the suggestion is pretty rough as it is now, so it'd be great to get some other perspectives on it so I can refine it a bit.

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I feel like your suggestion is still trying to circumvent people having to put time and effort into stat breeding and rewards people by giving them a bonus for staying in a certain stat range, or not having the same " attention span" regarding what it takes to obtain higher stats as others. The highest lioness in game ever was in the area of 9200 stats and I'm not even sure if she was hunted after she wasn't able to give birth any more. Your suggestions also doesn't take into consideration that kings are able to obtain higher stats for a few different reasons . 1) They live longer. You patrol a sub from 2-14.11 years old, when the sub is kinged he is deaged to 8 which allows additional stats to be gained from leveling ( which also requires a better attention span and time). There's nothing in the game that deaged huntress, nor do they gain additional stats from leveling and they can't be bred past 14 yrs. old 2) Patrolling yields a higher stat average then hunting. Depending on the sub male it can be almost double the average of any huntress. Additionally you can't work on your whole pride at the same time to keep them all in the same stat range if your going to be stat breeder. To get a lioness from 1500-1600 stats to 5k ( by her last heat, and that's if her last heat is at 14yrs old and you want it to be to maximize your Cubs birth stats which also requires planning) requires hunting her about 20 times a day. Although this isn't completely confirmed, and I would need to collect more data on it, I have heard that either a lionesses age or amount of breeds ( or a combination of both) also effects the amount of stats the cub ends up with. Again I'm not 100% sure on this.
Everyone has unlimited breedings from their kings, which is also kind of limited depending on the amount of territory a person has ( dnt hear people saying it's not fair that someone has 80,90 or 150 territory space while others only get 40) I also don't see people complaining about others that have special based lions that aren't applicable, such as Skyward, Celestial, Sidereal or Lilac and are able to obtain those bases easier then people who dnt have them because they get unlimited free breedings to their special based King. I also wouldn't expect a suggestion about an applicator for those bases to go over well either for similar reasons: it takes time, effort and currency to get those bases, they aren't meant to be easily obtainable. ( yet getting stats, compared to bases takes a lot more effort).
Nothing is stopping the "stat monsters"from having competition, they don't happen over night, a lot of time and effort goes into planning and gathering for them. Nothing is stopping anyone else from putting all of their resources into one lion either. They can choose to do so if they wish. I got into stat breeding because Im an extremely competive person, nor do I mind putting the time and effort into something that is challenging. Im not going to sit here and bitch that it's not fair if I come in second place, I'm going to regroup, plan and work harder to make it to first the next time. Regardless why can't people be happy with their accomplishments no matter what they do on this game. You can always strive to do better the next time. Why tear other people down for theirs? I'm really interested in hearing why people think it's so unfair or why something needs to be done to even the playing field ( that is even already), or why someone who doesn't have the same "attention span" should get a bonus? More importantly why is hard work frowned upon and being punished?

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On the other hand though, almost none of the work is actually your own if you go get a random NCL and breed it to the highest statted stud. A person who does that only has to gather enough currency for the breeding to get what they hope for.

This seems like it would reward people like me (who are not heavily invested into the stat market/breeding, but do enjoy it) by making the effort we do put in (which is not inconsiderable, we just don't care about being on top) worthwhile. Instead of being trapped breeding to that single stud over and over, or having to start below zero because we wanted to breed in a certain mark that doesn't exist on kings above 2k stats. Cuz, face it, the top 5 statted studs look pretty much the same as they did last year. Their stats change, but not so much their looks.

I don't really see how it could hurt someone that's willing to put in over a years worth of work and planning. Chances are, breeding a 4k girl to a 15k stud would still get you significantly enough better than breeding a 3k to a 3k that you'd still do the former if given the opportunity.

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Before I say anything else I just want to make it clear that I don't think that stat breeders should be punished, I find "stat monsters" to be extremely admirable works of effort that I as an amateur stat breeder will probably never achieve, nor would I even want to achieve unless I was putting in just as much time and effort as the LB lions. I am not making any complaint or call of unfairness about the existence of stat monsters, but rather taking note of the heated tension and stress between the two sides of the argument. What I mean to create with this suggestion is a sort of compromise, something to ease that tension, however I think it can be done, not just without hurting either side, but rather by benefiting both! Also, I do acknowledge that stat breeding is significantly more difficult and time consuming than other goal-oriented breeding, and by no means wish to impose the easier attributes of the other forms onto that of stat breeding. There are few real challenges to a LD players dedication that meet that of the upper tiers of stat breeding, and if that fact were to change I'd hope it'd only be because other things became more challenging, not that stat breeding became less so.

Disclaimer aside, I do realize that lionesses don't have the capacity to gain stats in the same way lions do, while LB kings take ages to create a lioness of a similar stature would both require access to such a king and take much longer, needing many generations of lioness hunted to their fullest potential to achieve. So yes, it would be very difficult to get a lioness to fully make use of the bonus on a LB king. However, I don't think that matters. Now, that's not because I'm trying to make things more difficult to or trying to punish hard core stat breeders, because I honestly don't believe this suggestion would. What it does do, however, is tack on the potential for a new challenge to maximize the stats of a breeding even more.

Now, to why I don't think this would be punishing stat breeders, beyond the fact that it pushes the current limitations of stat breeding for those who want to go the extra 1000 miles after they've already run hell-knows-how-many, this suggestion, depending on how it was implemented, wouldn't make stats easier to get. While this was pretty dependent on the input you guys give as to what degree the bonus would affect exactly, it was meant to be small enough that it wouldn't damage the market, rather as an encouragement that would help players who prefer steady results build their stats bit by bit more self-sufficiently. They'd still be much better off using a LB stud even with the option of the bonus, but it gives them a reason not to feel straight-up regret for using their own or a cheaper stud for their 2k every once in a while when they don't have the GB or want to save up, as well encourage as the ability to feel like maybe they don't have to. It makes their 2k or whatever lioness feel more meaningful, and like working on her is making a difference in growing your own pride. Mel for example can make ladies poop out 1k+ no matter who he spends the night with- or rather the five minutes, considering his busy schedule, and sure, 2ks will pop out something a bit nicer but there's nothing like being called "a bit better than a NCL". Having more flexibility to choose the stud feels more personal and as Bez mentioned this helps people who want to breed for stats and blank by making the build up to a goal more satisfying, since, again, they might not have to solely rely on LB studs.
Of course you could say that these potential lost studdings could hurt LB studs but I really don't think they'd be losing any notable business honestly.

ALSO, keep in mind that this is a percentage bonus, based(inversely) on percentage difference. So a 100 x 100 is going to get a lot less extra stats than the 5K x 5K, so it's not like people are getting big freebies, they have to have high stats for the bonus to mean anything in the first place.(Also, obvious point but worth noting anyway, since it's the percentage base difference and not a difference based difference the gaps size become less meaningful as you go up in stats.)
IE: 100 x 500 is the same difference tier as 1K x 5K, so they'd receive the same percentage stat bonus, but the second would receive 10x the stats of the first

So all in all, the suggestions is merely an extra step in determining the stats that anyone can take and becomes both more worthwhile and more difficult as you go up in stat range. No one is getting punished for hard work, Everyone's just being given opportunities to work even harder for new rewards that they can choose to or not to take.
I hope that makes sense, if you have any questions about my explanation, or find anything seems wrong, feel free to ask/tell me! Also, I think i'll think over the whole lioness-lion stat gain gap thing a bit more, I had a few thoughts on it when I made the post originally, but didn't flesh my ideas about it out too much at that point.

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Bez- Yep, your post is pretty much on point with a good portion of what I wanted to achieve with this. I hope this doesn't sounds dismissive, I'm tired, haha, and really I don't have anything else to say than that right now xD It's just kind of in line with my thoughts sooo.
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Anyhow I'm sorry if this post is a bit disoriented, It's late and I was going to go to sleep before I saw Hekata's response, but was too excited to have some new input on the idea to just let it be! Anyway thank you both so much for your contributions, it is very much appreciated! I eagerly await what other thoughts either of you or anyone else might have to say. ^^

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To your point about the NCL, anyone could do that as long as they can get the stud fee, which is easily obtainable anyway ( most of the LB kings will accept event items also) isn't that actually making the stat market, playing the stat game, making the playing field even more assessable for everyone? People are able to start with 1700-1800 stat Cubs for fairly cheap. Not to mention that the person who made the stat king, did put all that work into getting them there already, so yea the person who uses the NCL is already reaping the rewards of the Stat kings hard work, why reward them more by giving them a bonus for staying in a certain stat range? And why even complain when they are making stats easily available to anyone who even wants to get into the stat game? Let's face it, your only going to be able to get a 500 stat cub so high going balls to the walls like the 15k stat king person did. Having the higher stat Cubs available is what makes the competition and gives people the chance to even have a chance stat breeding at a reasonable price.

About the looks, it's their king and it's how they want it to look, why should that even realy play a factor into it? Zeref is completely different then Meli who is completely different then Boss and Keyser. It's not like you dnt have options. Just because it's not what you like or want shouldn't really matter. No one is making you stud to them. Plus you could always stat rep your own king for the looks you want, which is pretty much what the stat game is about. 2k stat Cubs are readily available. Or You could always use a gnaw on the girl you want for the mark you want when breeding with them and remove marks you dnt want, and it would be far from starting over, which you would have to do sooner or later anyway. Not to mention the amount of marks available from applicators, the oasis or piety allowing you to customize yours the way you want.

There are already breeding items that give additional stats boosts, stews and vultures, that benefit all players no matter the stat difference, and would end up being more benifical for people who recieve an additional stat bonus for breeding in a specific stat range. Like I said before the highest stated lionesses on the game was 9200 stats (maybe lower at a breedable). Even as a casual stat player this could still have an adverse effect on your pride. Example: you have a 6k stat king, which you have put a considerable amount of time into. A marking you want is available but the the only Cubs that have it have 200 stats or besides the 5 huntresses you maintain as stat girls which probably won't be close to 6k either and won't get a bonus either, the rest of your pride has low stats lets just say anywhere from 200-1k. You won't get the stat bonus either for the a majority of your pride.
You can also have the same stat advantage of studding a 3k stat lioness with a 9k stat king as a 12k stat king and NCL because of the algorithm that is currently in use ( Combined number of stats- skill X 12%), so why should a 6k stat king and a 6k stat lioness get a bonus? I would agrue that the person who has the 12k stat King has put more time and effort into it then the person that has a 6k stat king but they get rewarded with an additional bonus. And even more to your point what if the 12k stat king person wants a mark that's on a cub that only has 200 stats because the person who bred it doesn't care about stats at all. Inorder to get that mark they're not going to get an extra bonus and have to start all over from zero inorder to get it. That example could be used for even lower down the line. Your just using Meli ( might as well throw Keyser in there also) because no matter what there's going to be a big disparity of stats considering no lionesses has been over 9.2k stats.

Or is the whole issue really about the cost to stud to him as the first paragraph suggests: So as it is people want to make "stat monsters" breedings less valuable by decreasing the outcome of those breedings, and thus the worth of their studdings..


Edit: Sorry I was a little redundant in the third paragraph, it's time for me to go to bed!! Lol ( I did however get a few more hunts in though so that's always a good thing lol)

One more quick thing: people opt to breed to Meli ( or Keyser when they log in every now and again) because they know they are going to get a higher stated cub to start with as opposed to studding to Boss or Zeref or anyone else on the LB. granted you have to pay a little more, but who doesn't want to start with higher stated Cubs if you care about stats. If your a casual player or a hard core player, the higher you start the higher you get with the same amount of work your going to put into it.

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I'm just going to throw this here real quick before going to sleep, becuase once again you stiked just before I ran off to sleep xD I'll read everything over a few more times sometime tomorrow and properly respond to your thoughts, Hekata. ^^ Also I'm glad this caused you to get in some extra hunts, haha xD

The bonus isn't about staying in a certain range, it's about bringing your lioness/king up. You aren't getting anything out of staying in a certain range, yes, you get a higher bonus if your pair is closer together but so what? What are you gaining by sitting still for a few extra stats? There's no point to that. It would just be like having a lion with a few extra stats breed with another lion with a few extra stats. You might as well have just hunted and patrolled a few more times and been done with it. The idea promotes growth, not distillment, because you're getting more the more you put in. It gives people a bonus for moving their pride up together.

Also, there's nothing wrong with not taking advantage of the bonus at any point, like if the means of doing it were too convoluted to bother, and it certainly wouldn't be worth worrying about if you're breeding a 200 stat lion anyway.

As a note, ideally the bonus would not be an "in this range" kind of thing but instead a gradient(a multiplier on the percent multiplier, if you will), based on your wording I wasn't sure if you didn't catch that or if you were just saying range in a more general sense, so I figured I'd clarify.

Okay, nope, sleep. I probably read a bunch of shit wrong but sleep is now. Well like I said I'll respond for real tomorrow.

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So the more I think about this suggestion the more I can see how it is going to hurt hard core stat players and reward the casual stat players. Taking Meli and Keyser out of the equation, which I still have an issue with because of the amount or dedication and planning that went into each (The stat rep for Meli took almost 2 years, and although I dnt know the exact numbers or items that have been put into either of them, but crunching numbers loosely to see what it would cost to get there it probably took at least 20,000 gb equivalent whether it be event items or pure to get him where he is) because of all the planning to use the events to their advantage. I would consider my self a hard core stat player ( won't lie I love hunting more than patrolling but that's besides the point). My current sub male is 6300 stats. He started with approximately 2100 stats ( which obviously took a lot higher pair to make) He is patrolled on average 17 times each roll. All of his stats aren't from just patrolling, I also use stat giving amusement items such as dry palms and stat giving foods, such as combs, turtle eggs and fluffy bunnies which are ready available to anyone at an inexpensive price most of the year. Your suggestion gives casual stat players an advantage over the hard work I put in but giving them a stat bonus. If I breed my 6000 stat King to a 1000 stat lioness the Cubs will average about 840 stats, because of the disparity in stat range I dnt get a boost ( how much of a boost are you thinking anyway? Because it would have to be at least 100 or more to even make it worth implementing stats are after all priced on 100 stat incriminates and have been for some time now) Now a person who has a 3k stat king, starting at let's just say 2100 the same as mine, doesn't have to put much time in to him or a lioness starting at 2100 stats either but ends up with not not only the same stated cub but probably higher. It takes an 8k stated king to throw 1k stat Cubs with pretty much any lionesses, 800-1000 stats is where it starts making a difference with stat breeding and being able profit off the fruits of your labor. Let's get real, a 1k stat lion with out a special base or markings will still sell for a few gb, which is extremely under priced I'll give you that. Meli still has a limited number of breeding slots just like everyone else that can be sold each time he's rolled, it's not her fault that people undermine and undercut each other's prices of lions. No one blaming any of the 8k stat for the extreme over abundance of 1kers available in the market. Why because there are more of those kings available? Part of the reason Tilteds price is higher is because as a stat player she has actually taking the market issue into consideration, she's still trying to make it easier for people to get into the stat market while still being about to also make a profit. I know it seems like I'm taking this personal or strongly advocating for Tilted Scence both on here and on the other thread but I really feel like that's who is being targeted with theses whole stat issues. i also feel it is a little necessary because I know she would never say anything, with good reason because her feelings thoughts or whatever about the stat issue would be dismissed and invalidated and seen as being bias. I'm sure people are going to say she shouldn't take it personal, it's not aimed at her etc etc, but I'm not even her, dnt even have a stat king right now and that's how I feel because she's the only active person on top. If anyone was that person, I'm sure they would fee like they were being directly attacked also. There's already a ton of obstacles and hoops to jump through and probably more to come if egg yolks are nerfed. Anything implemented with stats is only going to keep people happy for so long and that will end when somone else puts more time, effort and dedication into getting a stat monster with the new impediments they are faced with and then the complaining will start all over again that something needs to be done because it's not fair.

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You'll have to excuse me as I'm on a phone right now, and once again will not be able to respond in full yet. I'll try to get back to anything I miss tonight.

As I said, the bonus is meant to be small, but how small it was relied on what the players thought. You wouldn't just get a bonus of 100 stats for having a 3K X 2K. Sure, maybe that winds up being in the range people suggest but personally that seems a little high of a multiplier at 2% for lions with a 1/3 difference. (I'd have to think about the actual numbers a bit more here before saying Yay or nay to that really. Maybe I'll make a mock up of a sample algorithm later to test out different multipliers. I think that would also help people gauge how this will affect breeding more properly anyhow. I'll see about writing program up even) Also, you technically would be getting the bonus even at your difference, it would just be a lower percentage bonus than it could be. So maybe it wouldn't make as much of a difference, but remember even a lower percentage still means more to you than a higher one would to someone else. Yes there's a point where someone can surpass you based on their pairs compatibility but I don't think it would be possible with a 5K sum, especially when even they have a 900 stat / 1/3 difference.

*this is more a personal note, so you can ignore this, actually you probably should it's kinda an illegible mess and probably won't mean anything to anyone else but I don't want to forget it especially if I'm writing an algorithm so I figured I'd jot it down real quick: it might be important to consider the differences in stats between the a single pair breeding in comparison to the difference of stats between the pair of pairs being compared. IE:
A: 1K + 6K = 7K [5K difference]
B: 2K + 3K = 5K [1K difference]
C: 7K - 5K = 2K.
Difference A[5K] == Sum B[5K]??
If Difference C [2K] !> Difference B[1K] stop?
Add dividing multiplier to Difference C?

Sorry for that clutter, your numbers just gave me some ideas and it will just help me out so that I can make numbers as fair as possible in my model, so they'll give a bonus that seems logical with the rest of the lions stats in game so that it can be large enough to have meaning but not screw someone over, ideally anyway. I'm an amateur computer scientist and love figuring out this kinda Shit, but I'm really bad at keeping that logic in my head for extended periods of time X.X anyway, back to responding!

I know a lot of time and effort and likely money has gone into Mel, and I would never wish to undermine that, but I don't see how this will. I really respect Tilted for what she's accomplished, and I think this wouldn't do anything but benefit her, as she'd be getting more out of Mel than she does now, and more out of him than most the people who stud to him, she has a few steroid girls in her dens last I checked, so she's getting a higher pay out when she uses them, as opposed to when someone studs him to a NCL. Even if they aren't in a very close range, as you've mentioned no one really has lioness capable of reaching that range. The lesser bonus is still far more worthwhile for Mel than the full percent bonus is for, well, anyone really.

Out of anyone Tilted is actually potentially get the most out of this suggestion. And yes, that seems ironic, since this was meant to dull the tensions of people who are up in arms with her play style, but the thing is they also get an opportunity to make more out of their own play style. It doesn't drag anyone down it just alters the pace-but not the speed- at which people receive their results. Making it easier to hold onto goals rather than easier to achieve them, as well as give more opportunities and reason to go farther. The typical method of stat breeders- which involves a putting effort into a single male for extended periods of time with the promise of results at a later date is still a million times more effective, but this way people can choose the less effective lower payout play style that allows them to taste the cake as they bake it as well. Like I said, this suggestion is about opportunities to work even more and get even more results. Anyone can reap the rewards of it through extra work. And those who put in more work into that, as well as those who put more work into stats in other ways will be getting more out of it if this suggestion were implemented than otherwise. This wouldn't mean that people like Tilted who are already selling their soul to LD have to work harder, they still get a lot out of the bonus innately since even a really low percentage has a great affect on them. But I think it would help the market by making higher stat girls a lot more worth while to stud to Mel/other LBs than NCL.

Also, by no means would I want Mels price to decrease, lol, the stat market is in shambles right now, and if I had the GB I would buy up every cheap stat cub and chase them right now.

But maybe I'm just not understanding something, Hekata, which is completely possible, so I apologize dearly if I'm missing something. In what way exactly are Tilted or any of the hard core stat breeders being harmed by losing out in this?

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I'm curious as to how they would lose out too. I'm hardly interested in or have the devotion to get a sub anywhere near 8k, let alone 12-15k. I certainly don't care to do all the leveling that really maintaining a high stat king needs. I definitely do not want anyone with that kind of devotion to be hurt. Quite the opposite, really! I like hunting lionesses and making pretty, high-ish statted cubs more. Without the ones who want to be on top, I'd be shooting myself in the foot if it were harder for stat kings.

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"And even more to your point what if the 12k stat king person wants a mark that's on a cub that only has 200 stats because the person who bred it doesn't care about stats at all. Inorder to get that mark they're not going to get an extra bonus and have to start all over from zero inorder to get it."

After some thought, I want to address this, since Virus pointed out that the intent is more sliding scale than all or nothing:

As someone who does not want to focus on sub male patrolling, but would rather focus on hunting, the current situation is not exactly the same on both sides. It's currently very skewed toward throwing all of your effort into your sub and king.

A person with an 8k+ king (depending on the range they're shooting for), is not actually starting from the same point as a person with a 200 stat king, when it comes to breeding marks into their lookers.

For instance - Last breeding with my 3.5k-ish female and 4.1k stat male got me an 800 stat cub. He didn't pick up any of the markings I wanted to pass and it took me 10 years of her life to accomplish that stat range. She won't get anther chance to pass that mark. Her breeding life is over. Could I have her to higher stat males? Sure (and I have, and one of them did pick up the marking and I did customize her quite a lot. And none of the higher stat males have the second mark I wanted her cubs to have so it wouldn't have gotten me anywhere in my project anyway... But none of that is actually the point.)

Now, I could go and buy a low stat cub with more of the markings I want and hunt her to falling-down-exhaustion, and then breed her to a male with the markings I want and- (...oh, but that nets me the same 800 stat cubs at max again. Plus she's, once again, facing down 14ys and that 800 stat cub didn't pick up the marking I wanted. It did cost me another 3-4 months of my life though. Not "just a gnawrock".


Someone who dumped that effort into their king does the same (patrols their future king to exhaustion and stuffs him with stat food/toys, same as I did with my hunter - those efforts are identical) and buys... however many lionesses they think they need with the markings they want, at whatever stats, waits until they're in heat, breeds them, and prays. Bad case, they've lost a heat from those lionesses, but oh well they haven't put a mountain of effort into her and they have others. Worst case, they have to keep breeding, waiting, and praying until their king is stat replaced again. (But I can't get another exact looks copy of that lioness I hunted to death without a lot of luck.)

At best, it's neither difficult nor time consuming to click "breed" a few times and you get 1k+ cubs with that marking you wanted!

I think the point here (but correct me if I'm wrong). To encourage those people who would rather focus their attention on their hunters instead of their kings, without (hopefully) punishing the ones who do want to focus on their kings.

The ones that want to focus on their kings would build stats faster, the ones that want to focus on their lionesses would build stats more steadily. Option 1 - One day your cubs would simply be 2k stat monsters. Option 2 - Cubs would slowly climb in tiny intervals.

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"I think the point here (but correct me if I'm wrong). To encourage those people who would rather focus their attention on their hunters instead of their kings, without (hopefully) punishing the ones who do want to focus on their kings.

The ones that want to focus on their kings would build stats faster, the ones that want to focus on their lionesses would build stats more steadily. Option 1 - One day your cubs would simply be 2k stat monsters. Option 2 - Cubs would slowly climb in tiny intervals."

Thank you, this is much much clearer than how I was explaining it, and is once again exactly what I'm trying to say!

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