Posted by Make deafness nonlethal 717+/72-

Layara [gen 5 clean
uneven] (#155838)

Sapphic
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Posted on
2018-10-10 18:39:23
Update: edited for a bit of a grammar mistake and to update number of deaf lions currently on site which is now 13

Update 2: added commenter suggestions

Update 3: Holy cow up to 102 support! Thank you so much everyone!

Update 4: thank you for the overwhelming support so far!

Update 5: there's now 15

Update 6: There's now 36, added a suggestion from the comments, and holy crap 423 support thank y'all so much!!

Similar suggestion by Phantom#145977

I believe deafness should not be a lethal mutation. Sightlessness (bundling blind and eyeless), clawlessness, and toothlessness aren't fatal and arguably would be harder to survive in the wild than deafness. I know it was added with fatal mutations but lord it makes no sense.

Things I can come up with as counter arguments:
"But if lions can't hear threats they'd die, it's more realistic!" If they can't see their threat or have teeth to deliver fatal blows they're not much better off. Also on realism: we have green and multiple other extremely unrealistically colored lions, nephelines, manticores, actual lion gods, demons and access to heaven and hell. Not to mention full sentience on par with humans. We left realism in the dust a long time ago. Also lions have been shown to take care of pride members who are injured admittedly it's uncommon but there is precedent. Best example of this being a male who, as a cub, was caught in a wire trap and for the next three years his siblings fed him prey that they had caught (story here fair warning there are graphic pictures and they are truly sickening)

"Well what about the people who've already used their jellyfish on them! It's unfair!" There's literally only 36 on site. It wouldn't be affecting as many lions as, say, making sightlessness, toothlessness, and clawless lethal.

"But in the wil-" In the wild IRL lions aren't sentient beings with functioning trade, government, language, mythology, and culture. They are capable of taking care of their disabled and really have no reason not to for over arching lore purposes, individual prides will always vary. Even in prehistory there is plenty of evidence that even Neanderthals took care of their disabled despite there not really being any benefit to them. This is the argument I see the most often and I'm not entirely sure why either. Sure there's dangers in the wild but a lot of them are mitigated by pride members just having their back. Taking care of the disabled is not new, not by a long shot, so why can't sentient lions that are basically just "humans: lion edition" take care of their disabled too?

Possible solutions:
Just take off the fatal status. Plain and simple. While I had thought of being able to king deaf lions though with a debuff DarkVenom pointed out that you aren't able to king sightless lions so maybe not. However for it potentially making no sense with the dialogue between kings and NPCs lipreading could explain it. It's not an exact science but this wouldn't be the first time fiction has had lipreading be 100%. Up to devs.

As for females: I think they should be able to be broodmothers since blind and, I'm assuming, eyeless lions can be. Since the examples I'd provided in my reasoning for why deafness shouldn't be a lethal mutation can't hunt I'd say they shouldn't be able to as well. Just to be fair.

If you really want to keep it fatal: make it so that deaf lions can be protected by broodmothers for their entire lives. If taken off protection the fatality rolls are turned back on again.

Other way to keep lethal but have it not be as facepalm inducing: have them die randomly but be able to live full lives if RNGesus is nice. Instead of them just keeling over at 4 if they've made it that far.

I personally believe the first is less annoying to code but I'm not a coder so I could be wrong. I don't know how this suggestion will be recieved but honestly it doesn't seem like it'd be the worst thing in the world. It's the only fatal mutation that really doesn't make sense as one so, if accepted, it shouldn't set a precedent for say extra limbs to be made non-fatal.

Suggestions by commentors:
DarkVenom (#121432): "Perhaps the danger of being deaf can affect cubs by SEVERELY lowering their survival bar to where it would have an extremely low chance of surviving a rollover without a broodmother or hornbill? This would make a lot of sense and be avoidable with good management of the pride and cubs, while also presenting a threat to the cub should a deaf owner forget to protect it. In addition, maybe deaf lions can be prevented from becoming broodmother themselves? A lion who can't hear a cub sneaking off or threat coming shouldn't be the one to look after the crazy children."

Frighteck (#40496): "The brood mother suggestion is cool, but I think if they made it to say.. 3,4, something like that, they would just live until old age. If they've made it that long without being able to hear then they probably have their bearings as much as any other lion." Personally I'd say if they made it to 2 they'd probably have gotten their bearings but I do think this would be a good compromise, especially if paired with an survival meter that went down more quickly making it important to provide some sort of protection to your cub asap."

toddo212213 (#21556): "another addition to this is if a deaf adol is hunting/patroling for experience there would be a significant decrease in the likely hood of bringing food/items back, seeing that when startled they will make a loud noise.

an addition to that would be for deaf/blind/eyeless when/ if they become an adol the survival bar will still be there. except when they are an adol/adult they will no be under to watch of a brood mother, but instead you can assign a lion to be their "caretaker" (sorta like a seeing eye dog but not)
the lion would be pretty much the same as a broodmother (no hunting) and no breeding (seeing that careing for cubs would distract them from monitoring the deaf/blind/eyeless) or alternatively the survival bar would decrease by half of what it would if the lion did not have a caretaker. ex: no caretaker -10% survival caretaker w/cubs -5% survival
the caretaker must not be too old (13 years+ maybe?) seeing that old lions require more sleep and such"

Scenarios for new mutation specific interaction dialogue:
From looking up deaf cats they seem to have extremely loud, almost screeching, meows that can be quite alarming if you aren't used to them.

Forgetting to look at them when you're speaking so they can read your lips (this happens IRL waayyyyy too often)

Forgetting to tap them to get their attention and startling the poor dear

Them just seeming to materialize out of thin friggin air because they're shockingly quiet (I can vouch for this one from personal experience)

Touch and body language are everything when it comes to the Deaf community maybe something related to that?

Lions learning chicken scratch to communicate since some form of signed language is out of the question



This suggestion has 792 supports and 75 NO supports.



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Edited on 31/01/23 @ 19:20:12 by Layara gen 5 clean pm melon (#155838)

shadowsspy (#9255)


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Posted on
2018-10-12 15:22:14
Support i know of a female lioness in the wild who was basically missing all her teeth aside from a few due to old age and battles i think she couldn't open a carcass to feed or chew up meet her sisters would open it and hold it open for her to eat the soft parts i remember that they lived near a hot spring or a place with high sulfur contents in the water i watched it online but im having the hardest time finding it now but i support cause if being teethless in the wild isnt a death sentence why cant deafness be non lethal



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Veni (#121432)

Interstellar
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Posted on
2018-10-12 18:02:08
I understand what the devs were going for when making deafness lethal, but I do agree that it is rather off sounding considering the other mutations in game that cause no issue with life beyond being unable to hunt or patrol (namely eyeless and blindness). It would be interesting to have it be conditional with a sort of guardian assigned, but I can see reason in simply removing it all together as a deaf lion can simply stick with the pride (when mature enough to know not to wander off alone) and use their other senses while others listen for threats. I'm not too enthusiastic about deaf lions becoming kings while blind and eyeless ones can't, it would be dangerous for the king to be off alone (and frankly, events where an NPCS talks to them would become rather silly).

Perhaps the danger of being deaf can affect cubs by SEVERELY lowering their survival bar to where it would have an extremely low chance of surviving a rollover without a broodmother or hornbill? This would make a lot of sense and be avoidable with good management of the pride and cubs, while also presenting a threat to the cub should a deaf owner forget to protect it. In addition, maybe deaf lions can be prevented from becoming broodmother themselves? A lion who can't hear a cub sneaking off or threat coming shouldn't be the one to look after the crazy children.

Either way, you have my support.



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Layara [gen 5 clean
uneven] (#155838)

Sapphic
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Posted on
2018-10-12 18:06:11
@darkvenom The danger is a really good suggestion though it would have to be implemented on sightless as well who can currently be broodmothers (for some reason). Fair enough on kinging I was just offering suggestions. As for the talking interactions lip reading could work. It's not an exact science but most of the time you can sort of make out what's going on provided nobody's turning around on you while talking.



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Edited on 12/10/18 @ 18:06:26 by Layara (#155838)

Telly| x3 Rose,
daedal, ice (#51014)

Amazing
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Posted on
2018-10-12 18:55:06
Sorry, I don't support. I like Deafness as a lethal, in the wild they wont survive at all. Another lion isnt gonna babysit a deaf lion, I do love this lethal idea. It adds variety if you love your deaf lethal so much just freeze it.



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jesse (#149767)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-10-12 18:57:09
@Telly the Skelly
The issue is that if deaf lions "won't survive in the wild at all" then neither should eyeless and blind mutations. It doesn't make sense. They could survive, there's no for sure "they WILL die" if they're deaf.



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Telly| x3 Rose,
daedal, ice (#51014)

Amazing
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Posted on
2018-10-12 18:58:29
I honestly think that eyeless and blinds should be lethal too tbh, its my opinion. They should all die early and spice it up. In real life all of them would die,



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Edited on 12/10/18 @ 18:59:33 by Telly the Skelly (#51014)

jesse (#149767)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-10-12 19:00:38
There's no 100% that they would die in the wild. I certainly think they should have a high likelihood that they could die, but not a for sure death sentence just for being blind.
Also, since when has realism been an issue for the game? This is a game with monsters and unnatural fantasy creatures, along with self-conscious and sentient lions. These lions would probably look after a blind or deaf lion.



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🐜 ant (#145977)

Indifferent
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Posted on
2018-10-12 19:06:21
that's the main thing for me yeah, the roleplaying aspect. we can literally save orphaned baby animals in explore (which also "wouldn't survive in the wild") but we can't have a broodmother protect a deaf pridemate because.......?



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flyteck [G2 Hibiscus
Frail] (#40496)

Good Natured
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Posted on
2018-10-12 19:50:50
I actually didn't realize it was a permanent lethal - I thought that if they made it to a certain age without dying then they were good. The brood mother suggestion is cool, but I think if they made it to say.. 3,4, something like that, they would just live until old age. If they've made it that long without being able to hear then they probably have their bearings as much as any other lion.



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Crossflare (#56198)

Savage
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Posted on
2018-10-18 00:26:31
From what I understand the realism idea was scrapped a long time ago. So there is no realism.



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Calix (#4975)

Buzzkill
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Posted on
2018-10-19 20:10:59
Wow. I didn't know the deafness mutation was lethal here. Total support.



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Crossflare (#56198)

Savage
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Posted on
2018-10-24 22:55:31
Honesyly they shouldn't have made it lrthslnon the first placebit doesn't make sense this ism't s realistic site and if blind amd eyeless csn live then so should deaf



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BUNNY (#132610)

Majestic
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Posted on
2018-10-30 01:48:23
If it's a realism thing that everyone isn't supporting for why does everyone support achromia not being lethal? Achromia/albinism reduces an animals survivability due to lack of uv protection and camouflage. It also causes problems with vision including issues with focusing and depth perception. It also can be associated with hearing impairments including deafness. Pretty much what I'm saying is that it's an online game where we all roleplay as lions and realism doesn't matter, but if people want to use the realism argument then deafness is more survivable than achromia which is classed as a non lethal mutation.



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Berenos|On hiatus (#84593)

Resurgent
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Posted on
2018-10-31 05:44:31
I'm not sure if this was mentioned here before, but back when those other mutations were added - Eyeless, Blind, ect. - there was no script for them to die at random before, as it was introduced with the deaf mutation. In the news post introducing it mentioned that previous mutations that should have been lethal but aren't could be updated to behave like deaf does. I'd support the heck out threads suggesting this for Achromia, Blind and Eyeless, just like I don't support this thread because, as I've stated before somewhere in here, I believe a deaf lions wouldn't survive long in the wild.



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Edited on 31/10/18 @ 05:47:36 by Beerzebub (#84593)

Khare (#61540)

Lone Wanderer
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Posted on
2018-11-02 06:47:38
I do agree with this. Blindness or not having eyes is surely a greater detriment than not being able to hear, so why should Deafness be lethal when those aren't?



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