Posted by Make deafness nonlethal 717+/72-

Layara [gen 5 clean
uneven] (#155838)

Sapphic
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Posted on
2018-10-10 18:39:23
Update: edited for a bit of a grammar mistake and to update number of deaf lions currently on site which is now 13

Update 2: added commenter suggestions

Update 3: Holy cow up to 102 support! Thank you so much everyone!

Update 4: thank you for the overwhelming support so far!

Update 5: there's now 15

Update 6: There's now 36, added a suggestion from the comments, and holy crap 423 support thank y'all so much!!

Similar suggestion by Phantom#145977

I believe deafness should not be a lethal mutation. Sightlessness (bundling blind and eyeless), clawlessness, and toothlessness aren't fatal and arguably would be harder to survive in the wild than deafness. I know it was added with fatal mutations but lord it makes no sense.

Things I can come up with as counter arguments:
"But if lions can't hear threats they'd die, it's more realistic!" If they can't see their threat or have teeth to deliver fatal blows they're not much better off. Also on realism: we have green and multiple other extremely unrealistically colored lions, nephelines, manticores, actual lion gods, demons and access to heaven and hell. Not to mention full sentience on par with humans. We left realism in the dust a long time ago. Also lions have been shown to take care of pride members who are injured admittedly it's uncommon but there is precedent. Best example of this being a male who, as a cub, was caught in a wire trap and for the next three years his siblings fed him prey that they had caught (story here fair warning there are graphic pictures and they are truly sickening)

"Well what about the people who've already used their jellyfish on them! It's unfair!" There's literally only 36 on site. It wouldn't be affecting as many lions as, say, making sightlessness, toothlessness, and clawless lethal.

"But in the wil-" In the wild IRL lions aren't sentient beings with functioning trade, government, language, mythology, and culture. They are capable of taking care of their disabled and really have no reason not to for over arching lore purposes, individual prides will always vary. Even in prehistory there is plenty of evidence that even Neanderthals took care of their disabled despite there not really being any benefit to them. This is the argument I see the most often and I'm not entirely sure why either. Sure there's dangers in the wild but a lot of them are mitigated by pride members just having their back. Taking care of the disabled is not new, not by a long shot, so why can't sentient lions that are basically just "humans: lion edition" take care of their disabled too?

Possible solutions:
Just take off the fatal status. Plain and simple. While I had thought of being able to king deaf lions though with a debuff DarkVenom pointed out that you aren't able to king sightless lions so maybe not. However for it potentially making no sense with the dialogue between kings and NPCs lipreading could explain it. It's not an exact science but this wouldn't be the first time fiction has had lipreading be 100%. Up to devs.

As for females: I think they should be able to be broodmothers since blind and, I'm assuming, eyeless lions can be. Since the examples I'd provided in my reasoning for why deafness shouldn't be a lethal mutation can't hunt I'd say they shouldn't be able to as well. Just to be fair.

If you really want to keep it fatal: make it so that deaf lions can be protected by broodmothers for their entire lives. If taken off protection the fatality rolls are turned back on again.

Other way to keep lethal but have it not be as facepalm inducing: have them die randomly but be able to live full lives if RNGesus is nice. Instead of them just keeling over at 4 if they've made it that far.

I personally believe the first is less annoying to code but I'm not a coder so I could be wrong. I don't know how this suggestion will be recieved but honestly it doesn't seem like it'd be the worst thing in the world. It's the only fatal mutation that really doesn't make sense as one so, if accepted, it shouldn't set a precedent for say extra limbs to be made non-fatal.

Suggestions by commentors:
DarkVenom (#121432): "Perhaps the danger of being deaf can affect cubs by SEVERELY lowering their survival bar to where it would have an extremely low chance of surviving a rollover without a broodmother or hornbill? This would make a lot of sense and be avoidable with good management of the pride and cubs, while also presenting a threat to the cub should a deaf owner forget to protect it. In addition, maybe deaf lions can be prevented from becoming broodmother themselves? A lion who can't hear a cub sneaking off or threat coming shouldn't be the one to look after the crazy children."

Frighteck (#40496): "The brood mother suggestion is cool, but I think if they made it to say.. 3,4, something like that, they would just live until old age. If they've made it that long without being able to hear then they probably have their bearings as much as any other lion." Personally I'd say if they made it to 2 they'd probably have gotten their bearings but I do think this would be a good compromise, especially if paired with an survival meter that went down more quickly making it important to provide some sort of protection to your cub asap."

toddo212213 (#21556): "another addition to this is if a deaf adol is hunting/patroling for experience there would be a significant decrease in the likely hood of bringing food/items back, seeing that when startled they will make a loud noise.

an addition to that would be for deaf/blind/eyeless when/ if they become an adol the survival bar will still be there. except when they are an adol/adult they will no be under to watch of a brood mother, but instead you can assign a lion to be their "caretaker" (sorta like a seeing eye dog but not)
the lion would be pretty much the same as a broodmother (no hunting) and no breeding (seeing that careing for cubs would distract them from monitoring the deaf/blind/eyeless) or alternatively the survival bar would decrease by half of what it would if the lion did not have a caretaker. ex: no caretaker -10% survival caretaker w/cubs -5% survival
the caretaker must not be too old (13 years+ maybe?) seeing that old lions require more sleep and such"

Scenarios for new mutation specific interaction dialogue:
From looking up deaf cats they seem to have extremely loud, almost screeching, meows that can be quite alarming if you aren't used to them.

Forgetting to look at them when you're speaking so they can read your lips (this happens IRL waayyyyy too often)

Forgetting to tap them to get their attention and startling the poor dear

Them just seeming to materialize out of thin friggin air because they're shockingly quiet (I can vouch for this one from personal experience)

Touch and body language are everything when it comes to the Deaf community maybe something related to that?

Lions learning chicken scratch to communicate since some form of signed language is out of the question



This suggestion has 792 supports and 75 NO supports.



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Edited on 31/01/23 @ 19:20:12 by Layara gen 5 clean pm melon (#155838)

ClawedDemon (#242138)

Impeccable
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Posted on
2022-02-22 04:11:29
I like the idea that if they make it to 4 they get the death chance removed! I don't think deafness alone is catastrophic enough to do what it does. It's a dangerous world for a lion but they're sensitive animals and I think with sight, smell and touch an experienced lion would have no trouble surviving with the tools it has.

I think if deafness presents with the "white blaze" marking and/or an albino base, perhaps the lion's overall lifespan could be shortened a little (these features appearing together in animals can mean these animals need a bit more care (see Waardenburg syndrome, I'm talking from ferret related experience) but in humans I'm fairly sure it doesn't cause life threatening problems and people with it lead full lives). I'm really oversimplifying this but I think it would be interesting so long as it was done tastefully.



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Sheep (#2797)

Prince of the Savannah
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Posted on
2022-02-24 20:12:09
I hate that blindness and deafness aren't on par with each other.



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🐬 (#18077)

Heavenly
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Posted on
2022-02-27 08:59:46
I was literally just about to make a suggestion board for this after talking with another Lioden player about deaf lions. Frankly deafness being lethal is ridiculous and has only grown more and more ridiculous as Lioden world lore has expanded. Lions can sustain an interspecies economy where monkeys create fashion for them, lions can achieve interdimensional space travel, lions can commune with undead Egyptian gods and fight monsters from hell, but there's no way a lion can survive deafness because that wouldn't be realistic?



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🎃 Jen
O'Lantern 🎃 (#177530)


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Posted on
2022-03-01 14:02:16
No supported, deaf being a lethal just adds a bit more interest to it as opposed to blind, eyeless, ect which have a physical change but pretty much no gameplay element that makes them interesting to play with. Deafs have no physical or gameplay element other than lethality so it would essentially become the mutation label and nothing more. I agree blind and deaf should be more similar, but I'd rather agrue blinds should be made lethal than deafs be made normal.



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VibrantDreamIG2Daeda
lEly (#252320)

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Posted on
2022-03-02 13:01:18
As someone thats deaf I do think it’s a bit insensitive that deaf is considered a lethal mutation. Any animal that is born deaf, including humans as the lions act similar, are able to adapt to their surroundings, and like a point made. Humans help those who need it so I fully support not making deaf a lethal mutation and just something the lion lives with like the other mutations that affect their ability to hunt

Also to the person that said that deaf being lethal adds a bit more interest… it is a disability that millions of people live and deal with on a daily bases and we are ridiculed and told we can’t do anything because we can’t hear when that is not the case. Why should a deaf lion die early when a blind or eyeless lion lives it’s long life? I know you said that blinds should be lethals instead but then we’re back to the problem at hand because neither of these should be lethal



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Lia (BLM) (#190815)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2022-03-04 09:08:17
NGL, i feel like the caretaking system for deaf or sightless lions should be similar to the pair bonds thing on wolvden. Basically, one lion (can be about any age), gets chosen to accompany that particular lion, and they stick together and look out for each other. It's not neccesarily a romantic thing (outside of headcanons), but more like a lifelong friendship. Maybe it can be a blind lioness and loner cub, who can appreciate not having to interact with 50 lions at once (everyone's been warned to stay out of [INSERT NAME HERE]'s personal space). Maybe it can be a deaf submale and the grandpaw, who appreciates being able to sit in silence. It would also give a lot of cute or heartwarming encounters and flavor texts, as you encounter other prides doing something similar.



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Shake 🌹🌸🌼
(she/her) (#167772)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2022-05-23 04:25:01
This thread is still kinda old but I want to draw attention to this again. I am not d/Deaf or HoH, but I am visually impaired (legally blind in one eye and strongly impaired but still mostly correctable in the other).

Deafness being a lethal mutation really, really bothers me, and I know that if blind/eyeless became lethal I would be heartbroken and hurt. As some other d/Deaf/HoH folks have said earlier in this thread, the fact that deafness automatically means a character should die is just gross. I can understand possibly lower rates of survival, especially as cubs, but I see no reason why a sentient deaf lion in a pride of other sentient lions shouldn't be able to live to adulthood.

And before anyone says "what are you doing on a pet site you can't see" I can, in fact, still see. Not well and not without strain, and I will probably lose the vision in my good eye as I get older. Until then I plan to use the vision I have left to do things I enjoy, thank you very much.



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Edited on 23/05/22 @ 04:26:03 by Shake (#167772)

🧋Blue🧋 (#248397)

Heavenly
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Posted on
2022-05-25 09:55:37
no support being deaf in the wild such as not being able to hear preadors stampeds or being able to respond to parents it is perfectly realstic and honestly there is a point line of realism this is one of them this is also placed in a wild setting were there are many threats
you do have a point about the trade part but it again would be on the realstic-ish side also this would be a nightmare to code and would take a long time



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Edited on 25/05/22 @ 10:13:28 by 🧋Blue🧋 (#248397)

SushiOzzie (#250991)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2023-03-18 15:33:42
Support! Realism has been completely thrown out the window a while ago so the argument of "It's more realistic" wouldn't matter to be honest; not to mention lions take care of their pride mates! They would be more likely to care for the deaf lion and stick close to it than leave it behind. Even if it was realistic ALL deaf animals can adjust to being deaf since their other senses would adjust to compensate for the lack of hearing; better sense of smell and better sense of being able to feel vibrations of movement and sound as an example. It is actually more unrealistic to have them die so early in life.

I have a deaf cat and he isn't helpless at all and his brother looks after him; like going to get him when it's time for breakfast for example. While yes being house cats this wasn't something that he has been trained to do at all.

I also agree with previous users saying that it's kind of insensitive to label deafness as lethal as someone who has lost some of their hearing.



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kreech (#430477)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2023-04-11 12:11:11
Support! I was surprised to learn that deafness is lethal but similar mutations like blindness aren't. I think that if a mutation isn't guaranteed to kill a lion really young, it should not be lethal. Otherwise it makes no sense and comes off as ableist, especially since this is the world of sapient sparklecats who understand trade and government & fight w/ gods regularly so they should be able to care for deaf lions. Deaf lions should just be debuffed/restricted from hunting & patrolling, not lethal. And I don't want blindness/toothless/etc. to be lethal too, bc that doesn't solve the problem of survivable disabilities being treated as death sentences bc """realism"""



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suddenlight [G1
Scoundrel RLC] (#54262)

Maneater
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Posted on
2023-04-11 12:19:32
On a more personal level, the lethality for deaf lions compared to others always rubbed me wrong as a Deaf individual myself. It just seems to make sense to either make it non-lethal OR have other similar mutations, such as being blind, clawless, etc., also have a randomly-die-at-whatever-age mechanic built in as well. Really, though, I'd rather ALL disabled lions that can reach adulthood be also able to live full lives.



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Edited on 11/04/23 @ 12:21:22 by suddenlight [G1 Scoundrel RLC] (#54262)

♤Tigerstar♤ (#245975)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2024-06-29 07:29:58
Full support! This mutation feels icky to me only because it is lethal and I would adore seeing become non-lethal! Deafness and blindness have always been seen as a death sentence in anthropormorphic media, and that really needs to be changed! I personally am not deaf (or physically disabled for that matter), so if you are please tell me if I'm wrong about anything, I would love to hear your opinion on this matter!



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