What I'm mostly worried about is the Lion Scrotum and dwarf market. Removing that necessity would make dwarf breeding a whole lot cheaper, and reduce the Lion Scrotum demand, thereby reducing their value. Should male dwarves be able to pass their mutation, they would inevitably utterly destroy the dwarf market all together, rendering it in the state of the regular primal market. For females, it would depend on their rate of passing their mutation, but you must always consider the mass breeders who would take advantage of the vastly lessened cost and target whatever remains of the dwarf market to profit from while they still can. It sounds like a good idea in individual cases, but market-wise, it's just harmful.

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What about a variation for dwarfism that's passable? That way the regular mutation stays rare and the and there's still a passable variation for breeders. It still falls in line actual dwarfism, given that there are multiple types of dwarfism irl.

Alternatively, we could make the current dwarfism passable and introduce a fatal version of dwarfism that isn't passable like Primordial Dwarfism, that may result in an early death. That way, there's still a profitable version of the mutation, given how much frozen lethals go for. This lethal mutation could, for example, have the lion die as a cub or by 4 years old (like deaf lions) due to "health complications"


In either case, however, i was still thinking that the chances of inheriting either of these be fairly low. The lethal version would have to be as rare as other lethals, to fit the pattern we have going already. The chance of inhereting for the passable version could be under 5%.

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Support! The chance could always be as low as 1-5% and only females could pass it, since their heats are limited, just like with hybrids. I have a feeling this could actually help dwarves, since most of time they're really not worth the lion balls required to breed them, especially when combined with buffy balls. People have a hard time breeding them because they can't afford the scrots, and even if they can, they can't sell the babies for anything even remotely worth the items needed because barely anyone wants beans anymore. They're just not worth the hassle and money anymore. Not until primordial dwarves finally come out, anyway. That's how my experience with them has been every single time, anyway.

So yeah. Lion balls are still needed for other muties, such as DUs, so it shouldn't ruin their values either. If dwarves worked like hybrids, maybe people would actually enjoy breeding them again? Even I wouldn't mind having a bean or two at that time. But if I need lion scrots to pass their genes on? I'm just going to keep declining them whenever people offer them on my trades, because they're really.. seriously.. just not worth the money required to keep them properly. Not with all these pretty pons and gons around, especially the latter with their pretty new art.

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@Kich I can definitely see that, but with so many dwarves already on Lioden, it would take quite a while for them to dwindle down in population. Pons and Gons start from slow beginnings with their entire population coming from the very few random chance First gens. I'm worried that if this does become a thing, people will mass breed dwarves like no tomorrow and pop tons of beans with the new lower cost. It would be wonderful to have them worth a lot again, but I believe the population has too good of a foundation as of now. In the beginning, their worth will skyrocket as tons of people scramble to get their hands on one, and tons of people will be mass breeding. Though perhaps it could work in the long run. Trust me, I really want dwarves to gain more status, but I just know if this is the way to do it.

@Tricks Actually, Primordial Dwarfism is a planned mutation for the future. Here's the mutations' masterpost detailing future officially considered/planned mutations.

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@Veni Oh, I didn't realize primordial was a planned thing! I'll update the og post accordingly.

Re: the price going down: The cost of the passable dwarves would go down with mass breeding, but that's inevitable with all passable mutations. That's why if primordial mutations are impassible along with already being lethal, it would drive up the price for that variant of the mutation, especially since the primordial dwarf mutation in the works renders the lions unable to breed entirely. They're rendered *almost* immune to mass breeding.

You bring up a lot of good points, though!

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Sadly, the dwarf market is already ruined, so it's hard to ruin it further, hence with the right decisions this would be worth a shot in my opinion. With the low passing chance, if the lion scrot would no longer work on them at all, meaning no more 25% chance per cub, I can't imagine anyone to go bonkers trying to mass breed them. Since at this time they're really really not worth the buffy balls and yohimbe barks, so I can't see anyone sensible wasting those items on beans when they're better used on (first gen) hybrids. Whereas it would give hope for people with not having to get lion scrots for their dwarves anymore.. and most of those people can't really afford buffies either. I mean, there are hybrids that never ever produce hybrid cubs in their lifetimes, not even with the full eight heats with buffy balls used every time, so if the bean chance really was as low as 1-5% like I suggested, I can't imagine this to be too much of an issue. I mean, when they nerfed lion balls with DUs, that kind of ruined fixed their impending situation too (even if I still hate lion balls having that kind of an exception but that's besides the point).. thinking about that, I reckon 5% would be perfect for dwarves too. Not too low as to kill the dwarf population off entirely, not too high as to make people go nuts with them (in my perfect world, anyway).

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Description is unclear and confusing, no support.

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i think it's a good idea. since this would be proposing to change the way dwarf breeding works anyway, why not give them a natural passrate of like 5% (same as hybrids) that way, people would still potentially use a lion scrot for high-value breedings, but it would still be potentially attainable without the use of a ton of breeding items. and i don't think they'd be mass-bred, because (as has been mentioned) the mass-breeding items required generate more value either being sold or used on hybrids. so the only people who would use items on the dwarves would be people who just want the dwarf for aesthetic purposes, and that doesn't ruin the market ^^

also, the value of lion scrots doesn't just stem from dwarf breeding, it also comes a lot from DU breeding ^^ so lion scoots certainly wouldn't be useless

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This one was posted by Lex (pika) (#124618) but was closed. Putting it here so that the input given is included in this thread.

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The dwarfism market is already super broken with scrotes costing more than most actual dwarfs a lot of people have given up entirely on passing theirs, most of the heat requests I got for mine lately didn’t include one at all. I don’t think this’d effect the scrote market as DUs are still super valuable, and I think this would only help the dwarfism market honestly as even though their individual price would likely go down, they would sell more often I’d imagine. I’ve seen a lot of people express that they’ve given up the idea of buying/acquiring one as its just not worth it to dish out for the lion scrotums. I don’t really see how this could be harmful to either side honestly, and plus it just makes sense genetics-wise so huge support from me.

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at least with humans two little people have at least a one in four chance of producing another little person I think it's actually a higher chance than you'd think I don't know why we even need lion balls to do it tbh... that is the unrealistic part about it.

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I'm in the camp of making it passable, if we are being honest it wouldn't do much to the demand of lion scrots as it is put onto double uterus and they can be used on passing Mutations as well, just not hybrids. The market for dwarves has gone up and down a lot and some parts of the year it's not even worth breeding them when the scrots are worth more than one dwarf.

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Support

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It sounds like a fun idea! Support!

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To keep things realistic, shouldn't the dwarf naturally pass from both parents? Maybe even a small boost with dwarf x dwarf (Similar to how Ferus works)
Bc that is true, dwarfs in real life have a chance to pass, and their chances increase if both parents are dwarfs.

I also thought about this after I found out dwarfs pass naturally in the real world and have been super confused as to why Lioden Dwarfs don't. Especially since Lioden has denied Cheetah x Lion hybrid suggestions as it isn't realistically possible for them to happen.

My suggestion:
1) Dwarf keeps its random chance of popping from any breeding (Maybe lower a smidge due to changing it to natural passing, But it is super rare already for a random to appear soooo I think where it is at is fine)

2) If they were to pass naturally, I think the pass rate percentage should be higher than that of hybrids but not as high as primals/pies/patches, so a good in-between would be a good idea. This way, Dwarfs stay a medium difficulty, and using a Lion ball on females isn't pointless. This keeps them a medium rarity.

3) Lastly, a small boost of about 5% when breeding Dwarf x Dwarf will make it realistic to how actual dwarf genetics work. (increasing desire for dwarf kings) Maybe even make the Male pass rate (Outside of dwarf x dwarf) lower than the females. (It should be low to none, as to prevent the flooding of dwarfs in the market, and encourage breeding dwarf x dwarf)

I can see this boosting the love of dwarfs, as not only is there a small chance that a dwarf king could produce a dwarf, but you are not sinking so much GB into the female breeding.
Based on the market and dwarf heat sales, it honestly feels like a majority of the community thinks it is pointless to breed dwarfs... as they are just trophies and not profitable...
I want that to change. I want not to feel like I wasted my GB in buying an expensive dwarf!

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