Posted by OVERHAUL: Verri's Genetics Rehaul/Reorganization

Verridith [g1
stellar/panda] (#407)

Interstellar
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Posted on
2022-02-08 17:45:15
Hi. I'm at it again. I poured more hours into this than I'm willing to admit LOL

This thread is going to be very very long and have a lot of ideas, as well as a TON of images, in it so be prepared for a doozy!

LD Genetics are... awkward at best. You have four basic genetic groups: Black, Cream, Gold, and Red. This is further split into Dark, Medium, and Light. Then we have rarities - Common, Uncommon, Rare, and Special.

Most of this is fine. It sounds like a nice system! Except... it's not.

Examples of this silly weirdness under the spoiler!



What?

Genetics Overhaul!


Okay, sarcasm aside, LD's system is a little bit dated! And there's no shortage of people who think it should change. There are quite a number of genetics rehaul threads, and I've seen dozens of conversations about how it could be done better. Most of the rehaul threads I've read, supported, and chatted about myself. I've played with vague ideas before, but it wasn't until a couple days ago that I got inspired - after watching a conversation on the topic in a Discord server - to actually sit down and think hard on just how a complete overhaul would be done. And not just redone in part - completely, totally, wholeheartedly. My way.

Before I hop into how this might work and ways that groups could be made and bases reorganized, I have some pros and cons that I need to address:

PROS:
- a new, easy to understand system with groupings that make sense visually and logically
- easier to fit new bases into, and much easier to see where color gaps are
- more refined groups make breeding specific colors easier

CONS:
- new system everyone would need to get used to; completely replaces and shuffles the old system
- might be slightly more complex codewise
- some groups will have radically more bases than others until slots can be filled in

New Groupings


I suggest ENTIRELY NEW GROUPINGS to replace the old. There would be four main groups, and then a rarity. The rarities are staying the same!

It would be laid out like this:

NATURAL → CREAM | GOLD | RED → DARK | MEDIUM | LIGHT → SHADED | MIXED | FLAT
UNNATURAL → DIM | PALE | VIVID → DARK | MEDIUM | LIGHT → SHADED | MIXED | FLAT

I also propose that this information be laid out like so:
Base: Dhahabi
Base Group: Natural Special
Genetics: Gold Medium Shaded

Why did I choose this particular way of grouping? I think it meets all needs - that it counts both crazy fantasy bases, and more natural ones well, and allows for an easily understood way to group in future releases. They make sense, they span the spectrum, and they make it so these bases will work in a way that doesn't try the brain for logic! It's also simple and not overly complex.

Base Reorganization


Now THIS is the big section, the area where all of the bases are redrawn into their new little groupings. I'll periodically update this with new bases if I can, and will include stats such as current base count and how many specials/commons/etc are in a particular group, things like that. These will use the wiki's icons, as well, for easy visual reference!

Keep in mind: these WILL be imbalanced. LD will need to work to fill in the color-gaps, and even out the ratios. Why? Because far too many bases were put in genetic groups they were ill-fitted in, and thus we have an imbalance today. At time of writing, I haven't sorted these yet, and I hope the gaps won't be too bad! We have almost 300 bases, so... ;D

Here are all of the bases in alphabetical order. Pretty mixed bag, right?

So, next we have to split up and sort all of those into the new genetic groups, down here. Remember, there are two primaries split into three sets of three, so there's a lot of sorting to be had!

Reorganization will be in the next post down (it would not fit in this post LOL)! It's also on this page for easy viewing.

Reorganization Stats


Some stats on how I've reorganized the bases! Keep in mind that these will be imbalanced, as I've stated before.

NATURALS: 164
Creams: 63
- 5 app, 9 BO, 45 custom/NCL, 4 combo, 0 NCL exclusive

Golds: 65
- 13 app, 18 BO, 28 custom/NCL, 2 combo, 4 NCL exclusive

Reds: 36
- 12 app, 4 BO, 17 custom/NCL, 3 combo, 0 NCL exclusive


UNNATURALS: 120
Dims: 40
- 17 app, 8 BO, 11 custom/NCL, 4 combo, 0 NCL exclusive

Pales: 32
- 14 app, 7 BO, 5 custom/NCL, 6 combo, 0 NCL exclusive

Vivids: 48
- 29 app, 11 BO, 0 custom/NCL, 8 combo, 0 NCL exclusive


TOTAL: 284

Reorganization Logic


Why are the groupings this way? Why are some bases in some groups? Why are there SO MANY CREAMS?

unknown.png

Creams aside, because this (hopefully) makes some sort of reasonable sense. Creams go with creams, golds with golds, unnatural freaky space colors with other unnatural freaky space colors. Similar shades should go with similar shades - and similar gradient styles with similar gradient styles. Now, not everything can match, and that's okay. But this should hopefully be a tad bit better than it was!

An explanation of the groupings:

NATURAL: more naturally-geared colors, ignoring pattern. creams, golds, reds.

UNNATURAL: unnatural colors. bright colors (like purple, blue, and green) along with impossible colors (such as silver, pure-white, and black).

CREAM: self-explanatory; creams, tans, beiges, and browns

GOLD: self-explanatory; golds, yellows, and oranges

RED: self-explanatory; reds, reddish browns, some pinks

DIM: darker unnatural bases; can be anything from black to dark purple, dark grays, anything deeper in color and not fit for the natural groupings

PALE: lighter unnatural bases; can be anything from pure white to silvery blue, light greens, anything lighter in color and not fit for the natural groupings

VIVID: bright, bold, unnatural bases; includes vibrant pinks, purples, blues, greens, and everything in-between

DARK: bases on the darker spectrum

MEDIUM: bases in-between dark and light

LIGHT: bases on the lighter spectrum

SHADED: bases with a lot of gradient, shading, or other extravagant changes from one color or pattern to another

MIXED: bases with some gradient, shading, or other changes from one color to another

FLAT: bases with little to no gradients, shading, or patterns

Base Removal and Combinations


In doing this, I've discovered there are a TON of bases that are... almost identical to each other, save a single shade or a couple of hues. I suggest that some of these bases be thinned, combined, if it's possible in the coding! I know there's another topic that addresses this here, and I fully support it. Several bases that are 99% identical are listed there, please check it out!

Reorganization groupings in the following posts! Thank y'all!



This suggestion has 74 supports and 25 NO supports.



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Edited on 08/02/22 @ 18:11:13 by Verridith [PROJECT] (#407)

Verridith [g1
stellar/panda] (#407)

Interstellar
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Posted on
2022-02-08 17:45:39

Natural Cream Dark Shaded (NCDS)


aardwolf.png ammonite.png hallowed.png ruffian.png

Natural Cream Dark Mixed (NCDM)


copper.png dikela.png russet.png tan.png

Natural Cream Dark Flat (NCDF)


amber.png black.png caramel.png chestnut.png darkbrown.png fallow.png khaki.png liver.png persimmon.png


Natural Cream Medium Shaded (NCMS)


arabica.png blonde.png ethereal.png hazelnut.png

Natural Cream Medium Mixed (NCMM)


antler.png buff.png cameo.png palomino.png pecan.png qahir.png sapela.png savannah.png

Natural Cream Medium Flat (NCMF)


almond.png apricot.png argent.png buttercream.png camel.png cedar.png cream.png creamdarker.png creamlighter.png darkfawn.png darkvanilla.png deepfawn.png fawn.png mongoose.png sandy.png


Natural Cream Light Shaded (NCLS)


asiatic.png cairngorm.png ivory.png oatmeal.png

Natural Cream Light Mixed (NCLM)


bisquit.png cocoa.png cremello.png dusty.png pearl.png white.png

Natural Cream Light Flat (NCLF)


beige.png birch.png bisque.png buttermilk.png eggshell.png isabel.png lightcream.png linen.png vanilla.png



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Verridith [g1
stellar/panda] (#407)

Interstellar
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Posted on
2022-02-08 17:46:01

Natural Gold Dark Shaded (NGDS)


damu.png gregarious.png hirola.png hyena.png ornament.png reindeer.png sahara.png trophy.png

Natural Gold Dark Mixed (NGDM)


brass.png bronze.png chatoyant.png cretaceous.png shedua.png

Natural Gold Dark Flat (NGDF)


chocolate.png sienna.png



Natural Gold Medium Shaded (NGMS)


anubis.png dhahabi.png doubloon.png gilded.png goridhe.png maziwa.png topaz.png victor.png xanthic.png

Natural Gold Medium Mixed (NGMM)


asali.png darkgolden.png dinar.png fulvous.png jacinthe.png mobola.png sepia.png zarbanu.png zarasa.png

Natural Gold Medium Flat (NGMF)


brown.png deira.png honey.png lightgolden.png udara.png zarafshan.png zer.png zivar.png


Natural Gold Light Shaded (NGLS)


citrine.png kimanjano.png mandarin.png nautilus.png nudar.png saffron.png sunspot.png triumph.png

Natural Gold Light Mixed (NGLM)


ducat.png fossil.png goldenrod.png nacarat.png sulpher.png taupe.png wheaten.png zarin.png

Natural Gold Light Flat (NGLF)


bone.png champagne.png lemon.png luteo.png sundust.png sunflower.png sunglow.png sunshine.png



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Verridith [g1
stellar/panda] (#407)

Interstellar
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Posted on
2022-02-08 17:46:23

Natural Red Dark Shaded (NRDS)


bloodbourne.png brimstone.png ember.png madagascar.png swarm.png

Natural Red Dark Mixed (NRDM)


auburn.png prune.png ruddy.png sorrel.png

Natural Red Dark Flat (NRDF)


blackrose.png henna.png umber.png


Natural Red Medium Shaded (NRMS)


bast.png locust.png rhubarb.png seth.png unholy.png

Natural Red Medium Mixed (NRMM)


inferno.png manakbir.png mauve.png mulberry.png ochre.png

Natural Red Medium Flat (NRMF)


anjeer.png ginger.png mahogany.png redwood.png rust.png


Natural Red Light Shaded (NRLS)


blazing.png fiery.png

Natural Red Light Mixed (NRLM)


supernal.png tawny.png

Natural Red Light Flat (NRLF)


blushrose.png dustyrose.png rosybrown.png vandal.png wildrose.png



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Verridith [g1
stellar/panda] (#407)

Interstellar
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Posted on
2022-02-08 17:46:46

Unnatural Dim Dark Shaded (UDDS)


bloodmoon.png divine.png duat.png meteorite.png spectre.png

Unnatural Dim Dark Mixed (UDDM)


augur.png ebony.png haruspex.png nuummite.png penumbra.png velvet.png

Unnatural Dim Dark Flat (UDDF)


jet.png noctis.png obsidian.png onyx.png seer.png



Unnatural Dim Medium Shaded (UDMS)


haunted.png inpu.png mudstone.png ragdoll.png

Unnatural Dim Medium Mixed (UDMM)


celestial.png flint.png pewter.png rhino.png

Unnatural Dim Medium Flat (UDMF)


gray.png lilac.png slate.png titanium.png


Unnatural Dim Light Shaded (UDLS)


aufeis.png maltese.png parhelion.png sidereal.png


Unnatural Dim Light Mixed (UDLM)


hellebore.png korat.png smog.png squall.png

Unnatural Dim Light Flat (UDLF)


platinum.png silver.png silvergray.png steele.png



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Verridith [g1
stellar/panda] (#407)

Interstellar
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Posted on
2022-02-08 17:47:06

Unnatural Pale Dark Shaded (UPDS)


frostbitten.png guardian.png murk.png stratosphere.png

Unnatural Pale Dark Mixed (UPDM)


ardor.png bandit.png solaris.png

Unnatural Pale Dark Flat (UPDF)


ice.png sterling.png


Unnatural Pale Medium Shaded (UPMS)


bushveld.png heavenly.png olive.png soul.png

Unnatural Pale Medium Mixed (UPMM)


alabaster.png hoarfrost.png nacre.png skyward.png

Unnatural Pale Medium Flat (UPMF)


dovegray.png dun.png hematite.png moonstone.png opal.png


Unnatural Pale Light Shaded (UPLS)


angelic.png cloudburst.png haze.png snowflake.png

Unnatural Pale Light Mixed (UPLM)


celsian.png cherryblossom.png orchid.png

Unnatural Pale Light Flat (UPLF)


albino.png ashen.png clearwhite.png



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Verridith [g1
stellar/panda] (#407)

Interstellar
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Posted on
2022-02-08 17:47:21

Unnatural Vivid Dark Shaded (UVDS)


bloodstone.png elysian.png hibiscus.png ogdoad.png rhodonite.png roughruby.png sunset.png

Unnatural Vivid Dark Mixed (UVDM)


demiurge.png demonic.png merlot.png mossagate.png sha.png

Unnatural Vivid Dark Flat (UVDF)


interstellar.png nadir.png


Unnatural Vivid Medium Shaded (UVMS)


flamingo.png fuchsia.png leonid.png maat.png scoundrel.png sunrise.png temporal.png windfall.png

Unnatural Vivid Medium Mixed (UVMM)


ancestral.png astral.png chaos.png labradorite.png rosegold.png wine.png

Unnatural Vivid Medium Flat (UVMF)


cinnabar.png green.png maroon.png


Unnatural Vivid Light Shaded (UVLS)


arctic.png dawn.png festive.png pulsar.png sutekh.png teardrop.png ubaste.png

Unnatural Vivid Light Mixed (UVLM)


citron.png glacial.png kunzite.png peach.png sphinx.png ukame.png

Unnatural Vivid Light Flat (UVLF)


chartreux.png glass.png rime.png waterhyacinth.png



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Verridith [g1
stellar/panda] (#407)

Interstellar
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Posted on
2022-02-08 17:49:23

Takeaway Thoughts


Holy bazoli there are a lot of creams and golds. And not enough natural reds, or fantasy rares/commons. We need more blues, teals, greens (egad!) and pinks in those colors!

After this, I think I'm going to dedicate a chunk of my time into making some nice common, uncommon, and rare bases that fit in the color gaps that are here. If any of you have suggestions that fit for common, uncommon, and rare bases in these colors, hit me up! Just make sure they are your OWN suggestions or I can't link them!

Discussion and Problems


This system does have its hurdles to overcome, however! I wasn't entirely sure how to approach some of these, so I pose these questions to the community:

- how should fail groups be addressed?
(my line of thinking includes not only pulling from other, similar genetics groups but also releasing more fail bases in the months after this is released, if it is, but I'm eager to hear other ideas!)

- how should fail rarities be addressed?
(theoretically, rarities should remain the same, but with this new system it may need to come under revision. for example, every special base should have common, uncommon, and rare fails - but which ones should go where?)

And we're done!


SUPER special thanks to Daisystar [#175132] (HUGE thank you!), Aggy [#70050], Vera [#158086], and Lee [#39844]!



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Edited on 08/02/22 @ 17:54:31 by Verridith [PROJECT] (#407)

Lady Argent
(Clean/StM) (#146403)

Resurgent
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Posted on
2022-02-09 10:57:10
A hard support from me. Reminds me of my own suggestion ages ago, which was very similar in grouping the unnatural into their own categories (tho I kept black as a color category and left it at "mostly monochrome" bases myself).

To address your questions, however. Definitely, more bases would need to be released, more than likely by creating some while coding this new system and providing them upon release so that each category has a few bases to fail to. Assuming rarity stays the same (more or less) then adding say. 2 Common bases and 2 rares to Unnatural Vivid Dark Flat (bringing that category to 6 bases) should technically leave its fail rate within that category the same (rarity wise) as the chance of failing to a common cream from any of the specials.

At one point I did a huge fail rate spreadsheet (which I may start up again) to keep track of breeding fail rates/what the pass rate was on combos and special bases. My conclusion was that essentially, no matter how many common bases are in a category, the chance to fail to any common base was the same (tho specifics did vary of course).

I think just releasing the categories with a few bases in each would make it usable from go, with the later expansion of bases building on a solid framework.

ALL OF THAT SAID

If fail groups were to be expanded to, say, all Unnatural Vivid Dark X failing to all 3 Unnatural Vivid Dark categories, things might get much more complicated. While I love that particular idea in theory, the coding would be wildly intricate. Each base would need specific bases to fail to, rather than a category. So....hm. Maybe stick with each base in a pairing failing to their own color category is my preference there, so you only get the word ones when you breed two different categories.



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Verridith [g1
stellar/panda] (#407)

Interstellar
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Posted on
2022-02-09 16:22:09
Lady Argent - hecc, I already have ideas for how to fill in the gaps just off of what you said I'd actually like each genetic group to have a minimum of 5 commons and 2 rares; that would not only make it much easier to figure out what bases can fail to which, but also introduce some much-needed shades in the custom/NCL pools as well.

To clarify, I think fail groups should be limited to only three of the four tiers; so Natural Cream Dark would produce an assortment of bases from Shaded to Flat and everything in-between, so we wouldn't be restricted to only fails in Shaded and whatnot! Opens it up significantly while still being easy to understand!

So by my calculations, this is where it's at as far as custom/rare fails, and what should be added at time of release or very shortly after:


TOTAL: 32 commons, 13 rares

That's... a LOT of bases to add all at once. :S

Another thing to note is that Vivid fails would be really, really strange. Which could be seen as annoying - green-y bases popping out of purples and blues - or... fun? Sortof? LOL it depends on how you look at it, I suppose. Vivid may need its own strange way of working, since it's an entirely different beast.

Let me know what y'all think!



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🐝 TANSYCLOUD
[he/him] (#178319)


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Posted on
2022-02-09 16:31:37
SUPPORT SUPPORT SUPPORT!!!

Scrolling through the bases its so nice to look at and very aesthetic, looks 10x better than the wiki. the genetics system is long overdue for a haul



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Sutittaja (#128142)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2022-02-09 16:49:57
"PROS:
- a new, easy to understand system with groupings that make sense visually and logically"

I'm sorry but this is increbibly confusing and overwhelming system to me at least. I read the whole thing 3+ times and I'm still as confused as I was the first time reading it through.. The current system has it's flaws and some bases are not where they should be yes but this system just has too many categories to my liking, especially with the whole mixed-shaded-flat system. Add the rarity system and you get even greater confusion. I struggle to remember some base genetics if they are solid or countershaded or what not but having to remember a very long acronym of ex:Unnatural Vivid Dark Shaded Special instead is just very hard to get grip of. Not to even think about the fail system and how two lions of far ends of such system would work when breeding, like Natural Cream Dark Shaded and Unnatural Vivid Pale Flat. And if we got by your suggestion in your latest post, I can see it being incredibly frustrating ordeal to try and breed a specific base when the breeding pair in same group cold produce anything shade in between
I'm sorry but no support, I would much rather have something similar to Wolvdens genetic system with Warm-Cool-Muted-Monochrome system



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Edited on 09/02/22 @ 16:57:07 by Sutittaja (#128142)

Verridith [g1
stellar/panda] (#407)

Interstellar
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Posted on
2022-02-09 17:14:59
Tansycloud- thank you!!

Sutittaja- sorry you feel that way!



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Desolace, Colorbomb (#36375)

Phoenix
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Posted on
2022-02-10 14:54:32
I like this much better. I hate that there are colors smeared all over the place with no actual relevance in the category they are under. Like black bases in cream.

There has been a large group of people pleading with Lioden to reorganize the genetics, but they have gotten a hard NO over the past few years since they implemented Alma's ideas.

Id like to see a better system. This is well thought out. It may need some tweaking, but I think its going in the right direction.



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Verridith [g1
stellar/panda] (#407)

Interstellar
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Posted on
2022-02-10 18:20:57
Desolace - thank you so much!!

It really is needed. LD used to be very focused on natural colors and themes, and we've... really stepped away from that LOL

We went from 'it's ok, the fantasy stuff is just in October!' to 'hey your bright pink and blue lion is now traversing space and fighting celestial dragons' so... xD I think we're due for a big change.



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Firefly (#82555)

Angelic
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Posted on
2022-02-11 18:19:41
SUPPORT!

Seer why??? Do they not look at the bases when they make them? It could have been great.

It would also be nice for all the unnatural bases to have a place to go instead of awkwardly putting them in random categories that they *might* fit into.



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