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Posted by | Ehlers-Danlos syndrome |
Mercutio|G1 Ennedi (#253677) View Forum Posts Posted on 2023-11-10 10:59:58 |
Not sure if this has been suggested before but Ehlers danlos! It is a chronic connective tissue disorder that can cause hyper-mobility, stretchy or silky skin, and can be fatal depending on the type. Just a note before writing this: I have heavily researched this topic, and live with undiagnosed chronic pain of my own. That being said, if I misrepresent anything about EDS I would like to be corrected so I can edit the post accordingly. I am getting most of this information from the Ehlers Danlos society. Link: https://www.ehlers-danlos.com/eds-types/ and other similar websites, as well as conversations with my own doctor about EDS and hypermobility specifically. there are also examples of EDS in felines and dogs! “Lions with EDS in the wild wouldn’t live!!” they also wouldn’t live past being a cub with blindness or deafness in 90% of cases but those are not cub specific lethalities in game, but I respect your opinion if that’s why you don’t support ^^ I’m suggesting a type called Hypermobile EDS, which is a type that causes varying hypermobility to the joints and especially overextension in the wrist, elbow, and knees. The lions with this could have a lowered stat rate, lower hunting/patrolling success, but a higher chance at succeeding in cub training; as pain from EDS nearly always starts in the teenage stages of life, children with EDS typically have hypermobility without the pain (though they CAN injure themselves easily, especially by popping a bone out of place or similar injuries to the joints) They could be at a higher risk of dying without a broodmother Ehlers danlos also famously makes peoples (and animals) skin more elastic, especially in felines. They are much more prone to skin tears and bruises, and have incredibly stretchy or loose skin. The muzzle would also be affected, as individuals with EDS have a thinner palate, the muzzle could possibly look thinner than normal, with loose skin around the cheeks. The legs in the lineart could also show the overextension in the joints by giving their front and back legs a “double jointed” appearance, think when somebody rotates their elbows at will. EDS will also make the lion much for fatigued than normal- again affecting their hunting, patrolling, and possibly them being kinged. If one is able to be kinged, there could possibly be a new personality added, or one specific to EDS lions, that may be the opposite of Hyperactive. Not sure about what the pros or cons of the personality would be or what it’d be called, but i’m 100% open to suggestions! The pose for the affected lions could be them sitting down or resting in some way, with overextended joints being visible in the legs, sagged skin around the jaw, neck, possibly other areas of the body like the limbs, and paws positioned in an almost “unnatural” position to the legs, and the muzzle or mouth thinned slightly. Flavor texts: -Cub training “(agility) [Cub] managed to slip inside of a small gap in the rocks! Just as you began to panic, you see them squeeze their way out in a way that seems almost impossible, and continue their training as if nothing happened.” “(fighting) [Cub] got into a scrap with another littermate, and you hear a loud pop and see their arm twist! They run to their broodmother in tears, where she quickly fixes the issue. Ouch.” “(fighting) [Cub] and their littermates decide to scrap over their favorite food! even though theyve won the fight, you can’t help wondering why they look so beat up.” -normal flavor texts “[cub] says they want to show you a cool party trick. Before you can answer, you watch as they twist their paws around to face their stomach. Their broodmother quickly tells them off, warning them they could dislocate the joint again. Again?” “you see [Adolescent/adult] wading in a waterhole, before you can question them, you see the familiar wince on their face before finding a more comfortable spot, finally able to relax their joints.” “[adol/adult] seems more exhausted today than normal. You remember they went on an especially difficult hunt, and get them some fermented marulas to snack on. They deserve the rest.” “[Adol/adult] approaches you with a limp, asking you if you can pop the shoulder back into place. It’s a simple task, but you can’t help but to wonder how it happens so often.” “[Adol/Adult] trots to you happily, rubbing up against you to groom. The extra skin on their face is a challenge, but you’re able to get each other squeaky clean in no time” There’s definitely more than could be added, if you can think of any let me know! flavor text suggestions or other lineart change suggestions are also very welcome! i’m open to any criticism or ideas about this ^^ |
Fraekinn [10x Seal - retiring] (#57572) View Forum Posts Posted on 2023-11-11 16:59:43 |
No support primarily because of this factor of EDS - "They are much more prone to skin tears and bruises, and have incredibly stretchy or loose skin." As a lion cub, they would probably die - cubs tussle, they play, they bite and claw. It's how they learn to hunt, fight for a pride, etc. A lion with such skin would likely not make it to adolescence, never mind adulthood. In addition to the hypermobility, they would really struggle to make it to adulthood in my opinion. In cats, it is called feline cutaneous asthenia - the lack of collagen basically does to a feline what it does to us with EDS. "Symptoms of cutaneous asthenia generally include saggy skin, with redundant folds of skin. The skin is soft, delicate, and thin, with insufficient elasticity. The skin is easily torn, often leaving wide “fish mouth” type wounds that bleed very little, but that leave scars which widen over time. There may also be scars on the skin that are unaccounted for. Your cat may have swelling under the skin of the elbows, due to the bones putting pressure on the skin when the cat is at rest, and bruising and bleeding under the skin (hematoma) of the elbows, and throughout the body. Lacerations on the back and head are also common. Collagen is low internally as well as externally, making it possible for internal structures to rupture, with resultant internal bleeding." I'll let you read that and let it sink in - wounds that don't heal properly, blood clots under the skin, lacerations on the back and head... a lion cub wouldn't survive to adulthood - infection for one would be the biggest factor, then bleeding out from a head/neck laceration. You can read more about Feline Cutaneous Asthenia online, but there are very graphic photos so I will not link them - including case studies where cat's were showing at months old. That would be far more likely to occur in lions as they grow a LOT faster than we do (hitting adolescence at about a year for example, versus us at 13 years). I would support if it was adolescent lethal, but not if its a living mutation. A majority of EDS sufferers will have a major health issue before they're 40, and there have been links to a shortened lifespan in people also. 1 player likes this post! Like? Edited on 11/11/23 @ 17:02:55 by Fraekinn Velvet Sealbomb SShR (#57572) |
Mercutio|G1 Ennedi (#253677)
View Forum Posts Posted on 2023-11-11 17:13:04 |
While I agree with your point to an extent, we have mutations such as Clawless, deaf, blind, eyeless, and toothless. These lions would also not live past adolescents realistically in the wild, and while the deaf and blind lions have shorter lifespans than normal lions in game, they still realistically would not live into adulthood like they do in the game. Eyeless, clawless, and toothless lions would absolutely not live into adulthood either, so while your points make sense it just doesn’t in the context of the current mutations we have available Also, it could very well be a lethal adolescent mutation if added, and i’d support that! It all really just depends on both the type of EDS that the mutation is based on and the severity of the condition itself, but outright saying that they can’t realistically live to adulthood doesn’t seem very fair, thank you for your opinion though! ^^ 1 player likes this post! Like? |
Fraekinn [10x Seal - retiring] (#57572) View Forum Posts Posted on 2023-11-11 17:43:32 |
I mean, I personally can't say anything about Eyeless, Clawless or Toothless - they were added before I joined Lioden; and I likely wouldn't have supported them myself and neither would a lot of "true lethal fans". This has potential as the first adolescent lethal, and I am saying they won't live to adulthood unfortunately based on facts - its very common in Himalayan cats, and they show the horrific symptoms from birth. In addition, EDS has a strong genetic link in cats - would you be proposing this is passed akin to hybrids? Or does it require a Lion Scrotum? Either way, EDS cats often result in prolapsed uterus or uterine rupture which would also kill the mother instantly anyway. 0 players like this post! Like? |
Mercutio|G1 Ennedi (#253677)
View Forum Posts Posted on 2023-11-12 18:04:45 |
Your first point does make sense, but I am basing my idea off of the fact that realistically lethal mutations already exist in the game as mutations that do not cause an extremely early death If it has to be an adolescent lethal, im perfectly okay with that! It would be a good middle-ground to both our opinions I believe it should have a very small pass rate, similar to tigons, since it is genetic, however there can be isolated incidents. and while I can’t think of an argument against the uterine prolapse, I can say that realistically absolutely no visibly mutated cub would survive their mother anyways, as lions will kill and eat deformed cubs from birth, as they’re not likely to survive. This would mean any dwarf lion would be instantly killed, and would likely not live to adulthood anyways. Albino lions are also incredibly rare to be seen, and typically die as cubs. Adding onto this, tigon and leopon cubs would be killed by the males of the pride. Your facts are right but in the context of what is and isn’t shown realistically (and the fact that most of the adored mutations in the game would simply die or be killed by its parents) it’s incredibly easy to overlook the death of the mother in these cases edit: adding a little more onto dwarves; even if the mothers did not kill them, they would for sure die anyways. They do not have the necessary capabilities to hunt anything other than small prey, and would be highly susceptible to attacks by AWDs, hyenas, leopards, and many other species. If they were somehow able to survive to adulthood, birth would kill them, and if it didn’t they along with their cubs would die due to the lioness not being able to hunt substantial prey. 1 player likes this post! Like? Edited on 12/11/23 @ 18:54:24 by 🍃Mercutio🍃G3 Tri-ros bast DF🍃 (#253677) |
🦎Rango (Main) 97/?? gifts (#334921) Bone Collector View Forum Posts Posted on 2023-11-13 17:37:08 |
First, I really appreciate the amount of thought and detail put into this idea and how the disorder would affect bigger felines. I was on the fence about supporting or not supporting, but overall I do not support. While I know that EDS is a genetic condition and not exactly an illness, I think that adding this mutation could push Lioden one step closer to being Wolvden with the illness/herbalism aspect. If this mutation was added, it would be more on brand to label it as "overgrown skin" or "hyperflexible" to leave more room for mystery. Other things can cause these symptoms, and lions can't diagnose chronic illness. Just like many things can cause deafness and blindness, but the mutation information is kept simple and to the point. 0 players like this post! Like? |
Mercutio|G1 Ennedi (#253677)
View Forum Posts Posted on 2023-11-13 18:07:42 |
I like the idea of it being called hyperflexible! would you be okay with me adding that to the original post? And I agree on keeping it simple, but I wanted to include as much important details to keep it as close and accurate as I can ^^ I really appreciate your input!! 2 players like this post! Like? |
Mercutio|G1 Ennedi (#253677)
View Forum Posts Posted on 2024-04-21 01:30:48 |
I’ve found a tiktok page of two cats with feline EDS! Their page is called tummyandgummy ^^ I might start looking into this a little more when I have time and make designs and concepts for it I might also change this from hypermobile-EDS specifically, I probably should’ve looked way more into feline EDS for this to begin with 1 player likes this post! Like? Edited on 21/04/24 @ 01:32:50 by 🍃Mercutio He/Him🍃 (#253677) |
💭Cog-neato Inc. 💭 (#284071) Lone Wanderer View Forum Posts Posted on 2024-10-19 16:19:43 |
I would looovvveeee to see this mutation in game. While I don’t have ESD, my shoulders are double jointed and very loose so I know the pain of a dislocated shoulder 🥲 0 players like this post! Like? |
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