Posted by The Problem of Prolifics [CLFL]

JAX |
🫏🫏🧩|4/15 (#98288)

Divine
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Posted on
2024-02-13 23:09:33
This discussion is directed at Clean Lines Felines Clan Members, but all Clean Breeders are welcome to join the discussion!

So.

Everyone knows about the Big 4 and most Clean Breeders understand that, on top of inbreeding, these Bloodlines are undesirable and will disqualify your lion from being considered clean by the majority of Clean Breeders. However, there have been developments in the Clean Community since this time, namely with new lines popping up who rival the Original Big 4 in commonality within Bloodlines.

Namely, this is the lion Valiance. As the Creator of the first Clean Clan and founder of the No Big 4 playstyle, I've been asked many times over the years if I would add Valiance and his bloodlines to the four officially. However, the playstyle has grown well beyond me for me to declare something like that in any "official" capacity.

That was four years ago and, here and there, I still see people asking this question. Should Valiance and his bloodlines be considered and avoided as Big 4? Allow me to propose a answer to this question and the question of future "Valiances".

Prolifics. Someone who is Prolific is a person who has produced many offspring. In the context of Lioden, this is a Non-Big 4 Lion who nonetheless has a bloodline that rivals the four in legacy. If you avoid such lions, you would desire No Prolifics or NoPro(s).

How would Lions that are Prolific be determined?
Again, Clean Breeding has grown well beyond my ability to determine anything except for the original big 4 lions. This (as well as the name of this particular group of lions) would be up to the community.

Of course, I'm interested in hearing some alternate names or if the community has already decided on a name for these popular NB4 studs.

***NOTE: There is no actual problem with prolific lions. That's just a fun bit of alliteration :).



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Edited on 13/02/24 @ 23:15:28 by π’₯π’œπ’³π’―πΈπ‘… πŸ‘‘ [Veteran] (#98288)

DawnStar (#166818)

Total Chad
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Posted on
2024-02-13 23:22:25
Dude actually a good point. It encompasses more lions that are wide spread such as ysdarr who, while being clean in the sense of the word and alive, is very hard to not inbreed into if your going for huge stats. Which has lead to many placing him on their no breed list. This would be a good term to use I think. However dunno how long or if it'd catch on.



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JAX |
🫏🫏🧩|4/15 (#98288)

Divine
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Posted on
2024-02-13 23:25:00
Ysdarr is a Valiance spawn, is he not?



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thystle (#14796)

Heavenly
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Posted on
2024-02-13 23:41:01
I generally try to stay away from studs with more than 200 cubs. This allows many users to avoid inbreeding when using my king. As a rule of thumb I try to only heritage rep with kings that have less than 50 living cubs at the time. That being said, a lot of the new age clean stat boys I would count to be the new big 4. Such as Ysdarr, who has now saturated the clean stat market as far as high stat studs. I would say lions with over 500 living cubs could be considered a new big 4, though maybe there are more than 4 now.



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Edited on 13/02/24 @ 23:42:47 by thystle (#14796)

JAX |
🫏🫏🧩|4/15 (#98288)

Divine
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Posted on
2024-02-14 00:19:00
Eh, considering the bulk of cubs go on to be fodder, tree cubs, or are otherwise destroyed before they can bred (or even more rarely, kinged) I think a better metric would be "how many cubs get kinged" vs how many are bred. Even lionesses get chased and deleted/have their heritages wiped often enough.

Kinged lions tend to stick around and produce lions much more consistently. Valiance had MANY kinged sons and this is also true for Ysdaar (has over 20 sons kinged, who themselves are going to produce statters who will be kinged and so on and so forth).



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Duke-G2 Murk (#443637)

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Posted on
2024-02-14 00:51:38
I’ve been saying this for a bit but got some pushback.

I think lions with 400+ offspring with a certain of % going to be kings should be labeled as prolific.

Ysdaar is an amazing example of this. I mostly avoid him because he has SO many offspring it’s practically impossible to avoid him if your lion has 5+ gens. Valiance and Ysdaar(IMO) should be added to the list to avoid.



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JAX |
🫏🫏🧩|4/15 (#98288)

Divine
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Posted on
2024-02-14 01:05:39
If we add Valiance, we add Ysdaar by extension, as Ysd is Val's sprog.

Anyone else? So far as i know, only Valiance has broken 10-15k stats and breached Big 4 Territory in doing so.



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Duke-G2 Murk (#443637)

Aztec Knight
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Posted on
2024-02-14 01:09:44
How about YoRHa?

I’ve seen him popping up in quite a few lines, massive stats and has 400+ cubs right now. About 65% being males who are VERY good candidates for kings (if they aren’t kinged already).



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JAX |
🫏🫏🧩|4/15 (#98288)

Divine
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Posted on
2024-02-14 01:51:58
Whatever the community decides, tho I had a quick look and yeah, I'd count him as a NoPro for sure. Plenty of sons kinged or going to be kinged πŸ€”



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birds πŸ¦‰ | g1
demiurge! (#121439)

Blessed
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Posted on
2024-02-14 07:49:27
Personally, I like the title 'prolific' for these lions. Easy to understand, shorten, and also sounds a bit fancy. I also think it'd catch on reasonably quickly.



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PoopedPard - G1
Ennedi NRLC (#147400)

Cold-Blooded
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Posted on
2024-02-14 08:14:36
I play in a similar way to you all -- I try to avoid kings with over 300 cubs and kings with lots of heirs. (Just to make projects easier for myself in the future mainly.) Big statters aside (Enigma comes to mind as another big stat king), there are also a few kings with 7+ rosette markings that I've seen that (while they don't have tons of cubs) produce a lot of kings.

If I had to pick a number, I might label a king as prolific if they had over 400/500 cubs at some point and produced at least 10/15 heirs? It might be easier to go by heir number (since they stick around longer) than by cub number? But as we've seen from the Big 4/5, those lines in general stick around for a very long time.

(Just a note, I have nothing against prolific/stat/rosette kings. If I ever had such a popular king I'd be ecstatic!)



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🎍 lee (#430968)

Impeccable
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Posted on
2024-02-14 08:53:19
If I had to speak on the topic of prolifics I'd probably nominate Ysdaar, YoRHa and possibly Zepfaire and Folklore- those are pretty common kings I've seen.



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JAX |
🫏🫏🧩|4/15 (#98288)

Divine
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Posted on
2024-02-14 09:12:35
I think I'd go higher than 400/500 cubs personally. I have almost 300 cubs as we speak, but my guy is a nobody lmaoo

Maybe closer to like 1000 with 10+ Sons Kinged and stats over 15k would classify one as a Prolific?



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PoopedPard - G1
Ennedi NRLC (#147400)

Cold-Blooded
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Posted on
2024-02-14 09:21:47
I'd be cool with those numbers. Though, I'm not sure if we'd need to include stats (if only because high stat kings will most likely hit that cub/heir number anyway)? But I'm happy to go along with that if that's what others want.



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JAX |
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Divine
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Posted on
2024-02-14 09:23:07
Yeah I was also think stats could be optional...I'm sure plenty of RL clone kings have no issue getting many boys up and kinged....



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Dork [G1 Qahir
Svelte Pie] (#277938)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2024-02-14 09:24:13
I really like this as a new term. It helps better differentiate between studs that just happened to get popular post Big Four and not. It also is a good way to differentiate between various challenge modes, so to speak. :)



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