Congratulations! <333

Mass-early-retire-'r here.

The thing I always tell myself with sudden next-steps is that that step wouldn't have been born if I hadn't spent the GB to early retire.

This is almost always true- Sunrise Villanelle popped out this Sunrise Multi-mark babbin, after all, it wasn't a studded-out creation.
So, even though it can feel like a "waste" - especially if you're 'using up' a Heritageless male, or those Early Retire fees start stacking... if you're breeding clean, those steps would not happen.

Some things to keep in mind:
- We're still a ways away from October, so Crunchy will not be available to help you clone this new Sunrise Savage Anjeer +4 Marks cub until she's midway through her life.
- Math? Current (Sunrise V.1) Villanelle is 3/13 ; New kid is 7/ 13 (Check?)
7 > 3 :'D
Mathematically this is a big step, even if it feels like it might be a waste the best use of the cub would require Ochre Powders (currently 9-10gb each) , possibly Mane rock, etc... she might never pass her base, whereas a King would have a great chance of passing within the first few, or 30-150 cubs! <3
and since your current has Base + Mane Shape + 1 mark & the new possible-Heir has Base + Mane Shape + Mane Color + 4 markings it is a true step forward (you're not going backwards, just an expensive leap forwards).

- We can't predict exactly when your next Sunrise will fall- it could be now, it could be born from this Villanelle (if you haven't Instant Cub Delivered everything) right after you early retire.. it could be next month!

- If i'm reading correctly, you're working on the marking stack & mane right now with eyes & skin to come later... wouldn't it make sense to prioritize marking counts for now?
Do you have a supply of items to help this along, or are you casually breeding without intent to resupply until the treasure hunting event rolls back through?
Is this your be-all end-all in-game goal right now, or do you feel alright about playing a guessing game to breed this little cub & keep 1 marking?

- Are you considering your Studding potential of a 1-mark Main, or is it really just YAY but oh no I just retired seeping in?
The fact that you got a next step so soon is awesome & as far as i'm concerned exactly what you'd hope for from this Villanelle's lifetime but i'm a chronic over-retire'r who flings way too much in-game currency at my projects so perhaps i'm biased in this view.

... - How would you feel if that next step is bred right away?
Can you take on the +50 +50 +50 right now?
Would you prefer a more casual pace, or are you antsy to see that BO marking count rise? What's your game priority over the next few weeks/months?
Whatever you choose, I recommend not looking back. :'D (Except to learn & Assess the next step!) I decided this year that even +1 was enough for me to rep because I had the funds & really really just wanted to be done. Unfortunately for many the final result of an even perfect full BO project is usually personal/dear & looking at the cost to produce is ... never fun. <3
You might always wonder what could have been if you just plodded along with the 3/13, but cubs may have a tendency to skew towards lower marking counts with anything below <5 anyway, so your higher marking count lionesses who will age up & require re-doing will probably pair better with cub
Do you struggle with feeling like you're "wasting" a heat if you tried one or two more with your 1-mark Main, or would you feel more like getting a next step right away with a new King would be a 'waste' of the retirement fees?
In the long run, it seems like you're looking at 1) Risk breeding a next next step right away (Yay! Progress! <3) at the very soonest by retiring now, or 2) possibly have a month or so on average before your next Sunrise base period, let alone step, at worst have to deal with 2x project accnts in the future to re-supply your marking count ladies.
The good news is practically any cub that pops out would be an improvement on 1 marking, & you already have BO mane type on Both of these options... so you miiight just get even higher than 4 markings next, without any early retire yet, but the BO Mane Type + Color at once might not always fall out again for a while!! <333



Feel free to let me know if it would be helpful for me to shorten this, I'm sort of trying to help you feel out your thoughts/feelings about these project steps & what you're really after. <3

Special BO Bases, July base passrates- (Edit: For the record, I breed Sunrise on my Main & Dawn on my Side. I did a two-rosette +Eyes + mane type/color + Vitiligo markings project that took me years due to the Ochre Gnawrocks, & am currently frozen on my Sunrise while I build up BO marking stacks. I did this while clean-breeding & have added exponentially to the cost of my projects by doing so. It took me a year to get a Base+Eyes+Skin+Mane Type/Color+4 BO Markings on my Dawn side because I lost the Mane Type early on & it was a pain to breed back on during slow months.)
Sometimes it feels like even Special x Special pairings get stuck in a rut, so an early retire might be just what you need to 'reset' your randomizer luck. This is pure speculation but sometimes those first base cubs pop out right away after a retire following hundreds without base so perhaps I am biased as a long-time July BO breeder.
I've also had my next-steps pop out from a Common or Rare based lionesses as well, so if you're always base-changing to Special for 'best mathematical chance' bear in mind sometimes those Special x special just won't throw Specials as much as expected :'D (Most recently: Sunrise from Common Copper, Dawn from Rare Prune) base lionesses, as well, so mass-base-changing to all Special x Special can sometimes feel like it should guarantee a Special base pass but sometimes it doesn't !)
I early-retired my Base (Skin) Eyes Mane color 3/4 marks on March 3rd, & my next Base project-step was on the 27th.
I produced around 50+ cubs Common, Uncommon, Rare, & 2 Applicator-special cubs with my 4/4 top marking stack eyes+skin +mane color, & 15 with 4/4 top marking stack eyes+skin +mane type + mane color.
2-3 big batches of 15+ Special-base-changed 4/4 marking lionesses at a time, I used far to many of my stock Buffies with some non-project side breeding as well, & a few hundred cubs between Dawn base passes.

I made the mistake of loosing my breed-only mane type in favor of a (Skin) a few years ago and it took me until now to get it back. :'D
So, stepwise, definitely Base + Mane + markings, add in eyes+skin last! <3

On the other hand, 1 early-retire early-retire 50gb is... around 71 pairings of eye+skin rock.




So, to summarize:

- DO you want to continue zooming? (Maybe king Cub)
- Do you want to proceed breeding casually at a slower pace & wait to see what pops out over the next week to a month or so, before making a final decision when the cub ages up?
-- Subpoint: Can you wait or are you going to end up aging up this cub within the next few days because you need to know what she'd produce?
I aged & kept female a +1 marking last year sometime & it took me until this to breed another with that mark, she literally retired before my next one came along but that was because I didn't have the best project stacks in my pride already. You're ahead there! <3





Edit2: Just one more thought... since lowest heritage of final Perfect Sunrise is a goal for you (I definitely understand feeling like you'd want to 'keep' all project lionesses in the end! <3), this is only reason you really need to rep with g1 at all. (50gb vs just 25gb for retire)
Many players breed 'dirty' while working on marking count, saving half of their retire fees at a time (take away the second 25gb fee).
No one can say of this would make you happy except for you, but for fun...

50 gb could be 5 Ochre Powder 'now' (or many more if they return to same rate, if the event returns before next Jan)
This could multiply your marking count lionesses, if using 1 on her & 1 on your Main for best results, though can still yield low marking counts especially if from <4 marks Mains (from my experience, is still possible to get 2-mark cub but not so likely) giving you broader base to work with & less stress for using their lifetime heats best.
It is not the most cost effective only due to price of Ochre Powder right now, I only shared this as a possibility for when you are stressing about your girl's lifetime heats. Just to say, how could you best use 50gb to further your project goal?
I did a few rounds of 2x Ochre Powder & went from single-digit to 50+ 4/4 stacks with a +1 Project Step in my first round & Project Completed (so far <3) naturally after 2nd round of powders failed to produce a next step ; wouldn't recommend to use them until you're at 7-8+ markings, but you're already there.
Your results may vary, but I consider myself a low-luck project breeder (most of my more expensive attempts fail but help further me towards my next Base pass) because my gameplay style means I am usually breeding for combinations of traits that don't exist yet, & clean, increasing cost way beyond what theoretical objective game value of the final lion would be.
Is not cheapest way, but may help!

Would it be easier to keep that in mind for future, to reduce stress?

I hope you stay happy, eager to see others' thoughts.
Congratulations again on the next steps & I how you find a way to best breed for your goal while staying pleased with your choices along the way! <3

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Oh my god 😂❤️ I didn't expect such long and honestly super helpful anwser so soon! I read everything but I'll have to get on computer to reply I should probably also feed my cats first as I predict it will be loooong post

Be back in a second!

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Apologies, I added a few lines as i'm doing homemade pizza night & wasn't sure i'd be around later- to clarify few rambling words, sorry for not pairing down the responses or double-checking again but i'm glad it seems to have been of some use so far.

I will return/respond at the latest tomorrow, maybe later tonight, so happy to share any thoughts then.

Good luck with the cat feeding! <33

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I honestly prefer super duper long posts so it's all fine 😊 And I forgot to write that in the first post - but I'll definitely keep current Villanelle until Friday - she's almost dreamboat so I want to get the RL ticket before I potentially be at the bottom of impression again 🥲 As I don't waste items on impression - just mass claim.

So talking in slow pace is totally fine with me 😊

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Okay, here we go!

That is a very encouraging saying It does make me feel a little better about spending these gb 😅 Honestly I just fear that if I could have the same result if I'd kept this Villanelle and if I kinged the cub. Like a 6+ marked Savage Anjeer Sunrise for example. But the point you're making about the mane shape is honestly giving me a lot of thought and making me lean towards kinging the cub now.

My first post was kinda chaotic 😅 In the sense that it was more my thoughts that I have currently. And I forgot to add all info that might be relevant. So about crunchies - I would definitely NOT attempt to clone this cub. I have enough expierience with cloning to know that it's not that reliable and I the lioness may never clone sometimes. So I won't be wasting crunchies UNTIL I get like Sunrise with everything but 1 trait or sth. Though originally I wanted to just king steps until I get a perfect lion - which will become Villanelle that I will THEN try to clone for kinging.

So the choices for cub are - to be kinged this week or to be frozen/kept male as a back up if allowed aging. Like I fear that this Villanelle might throw something better BUT I'm a realist so if not - I want to have sth to king later. As this definitely is the step.

Generally I don't want to use too many breeding items, unless on super important pairings like "almost perfect just without base" uncommon/rare/special lionesses with 6-7+ marked Sunrise. Like...if I can achieve something with mass breeding - I am fine with it. The project costs are huge enough without using tons of items on it. I just feel that I can get by with kinging fees bc of the joy that the kinging of the next step gives me - but using tons of items would quickly discouraged me - especially that most of the litters would be dissapointment anyway.

So to anwser your question - I'm just casually breeding 😅 Though I AM base changing all 9/9 marked lionesses and most of 8/9 marked ones. However this cub that is the cause of this whole thread...was born to 5/9 common based lioness with anjeer but not savage mane that was going to be killed after this litter 😅 So yeah... She definitely earned her life now

As for how I feel about the longetivity (is this the word? ) of the project and why I am actually doing it... I honestly just want to make Villanelle 😅 And I designed her not logn after I joined, so quite a while ago. Even though the project originally was completely different and honestly kinda abandoned, once I learned more about the game and redisigned her - she IS this design. It IS her for me.

Under a spoiler there's a little backstory of the origins of the design 😅


For me the main goals in the game are to make lore for my favourite lions, decorate them and immortilise the most important ones. Honestly all the grinding and GB making is mostly to "live comfortably" the life I want in this game. Truth is that frozen slots are expensive, getting most of the decor I want is expensive and finally - projects are expensive. Here is one of my lore lions that was like the first "mini-side project" bc I just wanted this look. And it was succesfull RIght now I don't even remember how much I spent (probably not so much but still) and I would definitely, without a beat, give thousands of GB of ransom if she was stolen or sth I feel the same about Villanelle. I just want to make her bc it makes me happy. To be fair - I have many favourite bases but one of the reasons I chose Sunrise for her is that there are no RLs with July bases so there isn't many highly BO ones 😥 I don't know if I would actually be emotionally ready to sell copies of her once I'm done... Or even partial copies. Probably not but who knows how I'll feel in few years. Also once I'm permamently Sunrise here I can cross her with highly BO lionesses and if cubs won't be too similar but still BO sunrises - they will be for sale. Though I won't kid myself that I will actually make any money in this equasion. I will definitely loose it but it's like buying happiness so definitely worth it

The added bonus is that, even though I'm breeding lions with the same design for few years now, I'm not sick of it even a little. And I love it on different bases too! It's super pretty on Cinnabar, on Fiery, on Albino, I bet it would look cool on Citirine! So I'm fine with breeding a little longer, in favour of not using tons of breeding items. But I would like to make and see some progress sometime.

Honestly, my quandrum here stems from the fact that I bred just for markings (+mane, eyes etc) for so long that I don't know how to breed for steps with base. Like is it better to king everytime I get anything more on Surnrise cub than is on kinged Sunrise or is it better to wait for sth closer to perfection? Though you already anwsered me on this question and as I understood - it's better to kinged steps with base, right? Like breeding for marks and traits again but with base? So each one more is worth kinging?

As for clean breeding - I bred dirty for veeeeeery long. But once I got 9/9 marks + mane shape and color + eyes on one lion, I kinged it, heritage replace it, slapped Ancestral base and just mass bred to NCLs to get breeders again. Almost all dirty ones were killed (except few best as back ups). But then some of the cubs started to turn 2yo but I didn't have enough breeders to feel comfortable so I decided to just heritage rep again & breed with those G2 cubs for G3 breeders. I decided I prefer getting to the goal sooner than fussing over one generation. G4 perfect Sunrise is just as good as G3 one. And I can always then casually try to breed G2 clone of already kinged goal.

So like I really want to have clean "fake RL", Sunrise Villanelle. But I don't want to necessarily cull all of the breeders again, just to get lower gen... But settling with G5 if I could keep lower gen by just heritage repping, even though it's expensive, is like idk... And if I heritage repped I wouldn't have to worry that I can't use one of the lionesses to not get inbred cubs. So I think that that is just the price I have to pay 😅 Though being fine with G3 breeders gives me some room, bc kinged Villanelle can be up to G3.

And I know I could go on with breeding dirty and then, right at the end go clean. But I feel like it's so much more work if I have base in the mix now. Like before I didn't have all the traits in the mix anyway - but now, theoretically, a perfect Sunrise could pop up any moment, in any breeding. However unlikely, I will never forget that, besides the use of eyes & skin rocks so 700sb items, ✧ Iriomote ✧ was born completely naturally. And she is almost full BO, except mane shape & 1 marking. So if I would somehow get suddenly the GOAL I want... I would be devastated if I would have to breed for it again just to make it clean. I think I would loose the spirit for it. But keeping the goal that would be dirty wouldn't sit right with me, and even though I would be happy I would still have this echo of a voice in the back og my mind that's asking for a clean one... I know there's nothing wrong with dirty but the market thinks otherwise and I just WANT SO MUCH for final Villanelle to be worth as much as possible in GB value. So it could at least mimic the sentimental value she has for me. Even though she and her line would be with me and never sold. And also who knows. Maybe I'll suddenly want to sell the clones one day. There definitely isn't many high BO sunrises out there.

As to anwser the EDIT 2 - the part with heritage I already wrote (I'm so chaotic here honestly 😂😅 But that's how I talk irl. As for Ochre Powders - they are getting pricey & I feel like I don't want to waste them at this time. Though I am slowly trying to gather some (like have more than 0 in my hoard ) for later - like when I'll have kinged 6-7 marked Sunrise and only when I'd pair it with perfect aside from base (but at the same time rare/uncommon/special based) lionesses. So I could bump that chance a little on the breeding that will already have the highest possibility of popping the goal. And I'll probably get some buffies/gops for that stage as well, though I'm not sure about that part. So right now it's more of a "do I spend those gbs on project or do I keep it for idk getting more frozen slots now, getting a crunchy for one of my RLCs or sth". Though this is kinda the "place" of this project for me. It is definitely one of the central goals of my game and central goal of this account. But it isn't whole consuming. I breed golds and other bases for fun on my other account. I breed RLCs. Some time ago I also bred hybrids. I try to "have a life" and other pleasantries here beside it. So like I could stay sane 😅 Also I did "abandon" lioden for most of the 2023 due to real life. But that doesn't affect much my love for this project.

To anwser the question from summary directly - it would be nice to zoom through the steps even if GB would zoom out of my account just as quickly because of it 😅 Honestly if I would get next step even in the first breeding of newly kinged Sunrise cub...I would king it anway. Nvm the 25/50gb again (once I'l have that much again lol). So there's that. I however also doesn't mind breeding casually...and I will either way have current Villanelle kinged until Friday at least. I could just as well wait until Saturday to see what will be born from the lionesses I bred today. If I decide to king the cub.....whiiiich honestly now I'm pretty convinced is the right move 😅 So all this talking and wirting did help me with thinking things through

So I'll probably wait till Saturday and see what's born in the meantime. And then I'll king a step, be it this cub or the possibly better one born within next 3 days.

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Sounds wonderful! I hope you produce another spectacular step in the next few days. <3

(Sidenote?) I absolutely love that the project is so dear & personal to you, from your descriptions of how you feel about all the cubs produced (Yaaaay!!! ) to finding a design that transcends time you love this much is so awesome- she's absolutely lovely. <3

Alright, geeking out aside.

I definitely think that kinging the Savage (!) Anjeer (!!), specifically, is what makes it such a lovely next-step for both your casual breeding pace (on the other side of the year from Ochre Saltlick) & the spread of lionesses in your pride.
It seems like (?) your step of eliminating (the other greyish BO mane color) from your pride yielded almost pure Anjeer in at least one den, so the only source of a BO mane color fail at this point would be the current 1-mark Main's Sundust applicator mane color.
& you therefore you won't have an 'almost perfect except the mane color' born at all if you heir [this or best by then] SvgAnj Sunrise cub. :'D (Except from a rare Mother who's worth keeping even with her non-BO mane color/type due to sentimentality, marking counts, or her other traits! <3)
Unlike Combo bases, Sunrise doesn't have a 'matching' BO mane color 'pair' (like Elysian, Madagascar, Serruria etc. - they're called Combo Mane Colors in wiki apparently) that can occur through breeding whenever the base is born, so you don't have to worry about any naturally-occurring mane color from appearing- it's just the parent's manes that can pass.

Your options would become
- BO ~or~ Non-BO mane type
- BO Mane color
- + (Marking count)
- Base

instead of
- BO ~or~ Non-BO Mane type
- BO ~or~ Non-BO Mane color
- + (Marking count)
- Base

Eliminating variables, raising the 'failure' floor, getting closer to the staaars perfection~

Specifically because, as you said, you're already at the point where the marking stacks available mean a perfection could be born from any breeding (with a much higher chance than using ncl's or lionesses with only a few traits, at that!) you "Just" (it's not much to ask, right?? :'D) need the base pass. [I added this sentence in later: I really feel like you might produce a few Villanelles around the same time, i'm so excited for when you get to name her copartners :'D <333]
So your 'next step' would be to eliminate that high marking count future cub from having an app mane, since you're trying to avoid Ochre Saltlicks down the line & have the time to breed casually for best chance of all cubs inheriting your chosen BO mane type/color.


I haven't typed a disclaimer in a while, so heere: I realize that you already more than get the point & won't continue to harp about this if you decide otherwise as it's ultimately your decision, but for good effort:

More exp: I have both had a (BO Mane Type & Color) cub (Royal Orchid, if you'd like the specific example) born from a non-BO maned Mother (Royal Orchid x Applicator pairing), which is our ideal & theoretical possibility with the best possible outcome- and had my only Sunrise base pass of the litter and the only Sunrise base pass of my [number of attempts redacted for personal sanity] Multiple Ochre Gnawrock Breeding attempts born to the potato'est of the litter (who only had the traits i'd guaranteed with items- even though the Mother is Beautiful!Stunning!Gorgeous! & has every single other one of her cubs i'd king in a heartbeat if they'd got the darn base pass) and ... it inherited the Mother's App mane. :'D
I had this happen once before & i'd eliminated all non-Orchid manes from my pride directly after for years but recently expanded a bit in favor of adding in other traits, so i've been on both sides of the issue & was BO-mane-color only for so long that I forgot how ... oof... it can be. <3
So, yes, we can get a Gen1 Hybrid from an itemless breeding... or that perfection G2 full marking stack Awesome from an ncl... but we can also never breed one in years of playing even with breeding items used. :3

So, to me, we early-King or Heir these next-step cubs in order to eliminate the 'crushing' side of the spectrum from ever occurring.
You might be able to 'roll with the punches' & let the almost-disappointment go completely, or it might just happen at a point when you've used your last attempts (the mother's last breeding, your last items, etc.) & it becomes a.. tale told to others because both extremes can, do, & absolutely will happen.. to someone, somewhere, sometime. It could be "Oh cool, maybe next time perfect! <3" happily continue or it could be "Ohh nooooo"etc. xD
For the same reason some players give in & buy out of season breeding items, we might end up with a higher percentage of expensive 'fails' by increasing cost exponentially but we won't have to see that 'ughhHHHhhh should have used a mane rooockkkk' moment.
Even if you could just keep her female, use mane rocks down the line, etc. .... what could have been your King now becomes a female who may never pass her base or clone in her lifetime ~ooor~ yes could easily produce the next heir sure but you have to invest more for that. :'D This is where we get into yohimbe barks &... just. Just do the rep. xD
It's not as fun as that BO x App = BO pairing, maybe, but unless you really feel like taking the risk ~or~ the thrill you'd get from that BO x App = BO happening is muuuuuch greater than the possible semi-disappointment of a 'perfect except for mane color' cubbin, or a 'perfect except no Savage maane nooo' or a 'missing 1 mark', ... yeah, it's more than worth the 50gb to me at least until Villanelle is perfect & you're happy to see any of your beautiful 'fail but not failure because so adorable' cubs & doing wholly breeding for fun. Personally. From my experience. :'D (Your experience & goals may vary. <3)

(Restatement for fun:) If you can eliminate the non-BO Mane color right now, you'll never see that other side on your "this WOULD have been my Heirrrrr nooooo ffff" unless you've already bred your perfect Villanelle & are enjoying her offspring, with a wider variety of pride, or would find a non-BO lioness along the way worth keeping & happen to be falling to the 'I can't see the mane on lionesses anyway' side of the thought spectrum <3.
It can happen.
I hope your next liter has a perfect Sunrise born !! <3333

But... we don't plan & agonize over 'but what if it's perfect 8D'~ (that's why we breed whenever it feels right & fun!), we plan & agonize over next-next-step-too-soon (?! - Never xD) to try to blunt-force these project goals into existence.

For my end, I totally agree with the stance you'd settled upon here: see what's born, King if not
& I absolutely wouldn't regret eliminating the 'perfect except for mane color' Sunrise for 50gb,
even if the final pops out from a non-mane-changed 3-mark lioness (ahem) that's just a fun little bit of trivia, we don't regret keeping or having our 8-10 marking stack clean lionesses (<3) even if painfully bred just because she got lucky. (Well.. maybe a little.)
They can always be used to gather other traits or make fun combinations/pairings with similar color schemes out of pride. :3 (Like near-RLCs! Near-close mix potential)
You might start to take the BO mane type for granted or forget to even check mane color from a random crb'ed ncl somewhere down the line, but it's way happier than trying to re-breed Savage or use items that can go for 35-60gb in later months. If the amnesia sets in, please do remember that it could be 1 breeding to get it back or a few Saltlicks to Hybrids you'd be using them on anyway or it could be 3,000. I used to think re-breeding BO mane types could give a fun something to do in off/slow seasons but... nah it's just not worth it. If you've ever had to rely on horrible randomizer luck for Special BO base passes, it's not worth the months. I'm happy to be back to taking my Royal for granted. <3
I hope your can zoom without too much added cost! <3

Good luck!! <333

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(Just wanted to add this separately as i'll leave my mane-tangent post alone)


About 'How to breed for BO Base':

Each step, what's best, depends on what you have plenty of & what you still need at the time of the cub's birth.

After this step, I would keep Sunrise + BO Mane Type/Color + 4+ Markings until you need to either:

- Replenish your supply of a marking that only exists in your pride & you're running low on breeders for (Yes, you have a few full stacks saved; this is specifically if you don't want to roll both accounts yet & are running low on unfrozen breeders :3)
^ In this case, a 4+ marking otherwise same-step +Base with those rare/depleted markings would be better than your new-cub-current king (who will produce a lot of his-marked cubs in his lifetime if he outlives the breeders)


- Are planning to take a short break from project to replenish supplies or even just want to have a 'next step' kinged
^ Watch out for your feelings, if you love kinging a next-step & that's what makes the slow months enjoyable then even a +1 is worth it sometimes to keep you energized. :3
I usually do this when my Need to Keep Motivated >>> Need to Hold On to Funds. (If i'd be spending them on this anyway at some point I just give in. <3)
As you say, don't be afraid to claim that bit of happiness. <3

- Move on to eye/skin rock
^ In this case, you'll keep the highest marking count possible on Base for your King if you already have eye/skin on lionesses & start to separate out whether you need to home-brew all the skin/eye lionesses first or could be fine kinging just a base+eyes (Best when the Eyes you're targetting aren't commonly found on those bases) or base+skin (Only really for rarer BO skin types that would be hard to replenish) etc depending on which Base+eyes+skin cub gets born first because you have hundreds of marking-stack lionesses, or maybe counting on making all-lioness breeders with eyes+skin+mane color+marking stacks to use with your Base Main if you're at a weird junction of needing to replenish rare marking counts & moving on to the next step.

This second part, producing eyes+skin almost-perfect lionesses, happens naturally in low-luck environments over time.
It's better to have eyes+skin+base on your Main, if you don't have (m)any in your pride already, because then any breeding could become a eyes+skin+base possibility :
but if you already have a good selection of either eyes OR skin on lionesses... it's better to keep higher marking count Main since you can just rock the mother's trait.
Matching eyes+skin on everything is pretty, but not strictly needed, which is one reason I see a lot of players saving it 'til the end.

If the eyes/skin are readily available on another stud who allows items & could produce your perfect goal when bred to your high-marking-stack everything-but-the-base almost-perfect lionesses, you could also save yourself from kinging early by building the eyes+skin lionesses from studded-out litters if cost appropriate.
Then, to keep everything clean, breeding those eyes+skin resulting cubs to your own main until your cooldown is up or you produce something worthy of kinging.
I'm assuming you're breeding everything internally, of course, just wanted to mention that cost-analysis is appropriate whenever a new trait gets picked up by another active pride.
You'll naturally see this (just 1 more click to check for a Stud from search) if you start needing to figure out how easy it would be to replenish some traits when/if your older gals age. It doesn't really require special looking!

You will naturally start producing/keeping a lot of eye+skin+marking count lionesses over time if the BO base proves stubborn even for your base-changed gals. (I already forgot to include +mane, it's that simple once you have it on your King xD Failures still occur, just lot less often <3)
As your pride expands, unless that Perfection appears along the way, what the best decision for BO Base Breeding will be depends on what you have in your pride & how close you are to needing to replenish your breeders again. When I finally bred eyes+skin onto my Base, pretty much my entire pride of Gen6-7 lionesses have both eye&skin because i'd been using the rock combos for so long with a mixed project+non-project cycle that often lead my BO base passes to fall onto studded- or non-project- breedings.

My main issue was: Not every litter I bred being capable of producing my perfection.

^ I separated out this sentence because as you get closer, you'll need to think about whether you want to close down breeding to only 'perfection possible' with occasional hybrid/RLC-clone/etc. litters or risk the base pass on a non-rock'ed litter.
I ended up there because I lost the BO mane type in favor of skin (Bad!!) so I had to only rock the BO-mane-factors as a cost saving measure due to how long it was taking to breed back in instead of potentially throwing it onto any litter, so that's where a deviation leads to someone ranting on about dooon't loooose your BOOoooo maaaannneeeee for ages. xD
Hopefully you won't get stuck in that decision tree, but It happens.

I'd be happy to peek through

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I'm at work right now but I just need to say it immidiately - I totally didn't think of it as eliminating the possibility of getting "perfect except from mane color Sunrise" and now I do. And if yesterday I was leaning towards kinging the cub but still hesitant... after reading this I am definitely going to king the cub on Saturday 😃

Thank you so much! ❤️ Your way of going through everything in one-two posts is definitely matching to the way my brain works 😃 And now I don't even think of this kinging as "oh so much money". I'm just happy to eliminate one of the definitely most irritating fails. Like I could go without BO mane SKIN (😂). EVEN without BO eyes at first (as Celestite can throw starshine anyway). Depending on which mark - maybe even with 8BO marking Sunrise. Though I could still try to get 9BO. But mane that's not Savage Anjeer/Cimmerian/Cinnabar/Citrine/Copal/Clay/Fiery/Prune/Ebony?? No way. Like I don't know why I am so attached to it but I AM 😂

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Omg thank you for the guide!!! ❤️ That will be super helpful. I entered the faze where I don't know what exactly am I doing 😆 Also I have one super duper rare marking in the design. It makes sense bc it was hard to obtain as it was rare to begin with. It's Feline 8 Ginger on slot 5. If you'd check out how many living, breedable lions there are with it - sth over 300. But how many there are in other prides than mine (198042 & 200075)? Like 5 or sth 😂 Definitely less than 10

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Absolutely!

And... as a fellow 'but I know it's under there ;~; ugh ' : It just takes one glance at wardrobe to see exactly why.
1 "what do you look like underneath there~" to see why that perfect mane color that flows so nicely just.. matters.

( I just latched onto Anjeer as that's clearly the first volunteer. ) 'Anjeer/Cimmerian/Cinnabar/Citrine/Copal/Clay/Fiery/Prune/Ebony' leaves a lot of room for variance in design so whenever you feel tired of seeing the word Anjeer you could always keep the other BO mane colors alive in your pride, to keep a fresh feel, too?
There's so much possibility there's no need to overly stagnate if you truly would be happy with any of the variety.

I hope I didn't make the point too strongly, but I usually end up calculating how many items it could take right now to redo perfection when i'm debating too long over what a true 'next step' is or lamenting over a 'pretty fail that I caaaan't king' so for me this style helps. xD



Happy to help, i'll stop editing that monster at the moment
If anyone else has some feedback to add, please don't let my walls of text stop you, I just try to share experience & thoughts whenever inspired as I think i've pretty much tried all strategies at this point except... buying what I want/bribing others with a prize or final offer pricetag to do it for me (mostly because it doesn't exist yet.)

Oof! I'd definintely keep an eye on S5:F8Ging, in that case!
You have an impressive stock, i'm assuming from one of the past mass-marking breeder kings, but that would make me nervous down the line if they start aging out.

I'd go so far to say that may be a next target when you start the +eyes, but as long as your numbers stay good & you're not accidentally tossing any when short on territory it will work out fine. :3

Hope your day goes well & i'll be back casually to answer or chime in on any other points as pinged! <3

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Originally it was supposed to be Anjeer mane. But once Cimmerian and Cinnabar colors were added... I just So I do have a little cave with Savage Cinnabar & Savage Cimmerian lions Some even already are children of previous, 9BO marked, Villanelle, so they have couple of the right marks

As for Copal & Clay - I added them when I discovered during mass breeding that they are exclusive NCL mane colors. I mean I knew that but I didn't know they are BO 😃 And they do look nice on my design. The rest is just "is BO and looks nice" & I added them when I looked for potential Sunrises to king. I found the one with Savage not BO mane but still. I just kept them on the list

You did make your point strongly enough 😁 Honestly it was just super helpful and very informative and I think your "biases" (mane 😆) helped and not the other way around

I'll definitely try to focus on getting S5: F8G onto Villanelle next. But in case it was in danger of dying out - I'll stomach making Bel (my side king) project marking King for a month 😁 And I love that colors doesn't matter when it comes to breeding for certain special base - only rarities. That way I can slap any base I want on my breeders (The cheapest ones lol But for Bel it would be sth Black or Gold)

Also I feel like universe is telling me to king the cub and heritage rep too 😆 As I froze my side for a couple of days and when I checked it now - I have 35gb more there. I guess few trades sold 😁

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Awesome!
Sounds like you have an excellent collection of traits you love to both keep you entertained & busy.


Indeed! I personally try to keep a few of each Special type i've collected in my pride so I 'feel' like i'm getting a good spread of results from them but who knows if it helps beyond the SpecialxSpecial percentage.

That definitely seems to be a welcoming sign. xD

Good luck with the next steps!! :heart:

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Okay, so after two weeks here I am again with the dillema 😅 My current Villanelle (so mane, base + 4 out of 9 markings) produced two Sunrises before today (one with 4 marks & mane and second one with 5 marks but missing savage). And TODAY...she threw three Sunrises & two of them are steps! And it's not just one mark forward. They both have 6 out of 9 markings & the Savage Anjeer ofc.

Baby one
Baby two
Not step but still Sunrise aka baby three

However both are G4...and the only not step is G3 🥲 Life is funny like that. I definitely want to king one of them right away. I don't worry about getting 7-9 next step right away bc like we established here - that would be awesome 😃

However...even though I don't regret heritage repping my current Villanelle...I really don't want to do that one more time 😅 Like right now heritage repping gen 4 feels like a waste. Especially since my breeders range from G2 to G4 anyway. And like I think I'll just king the step and fuck the generation of the potentially perfect Villanelle. She still will be clean. And G5 or G3 isn't that much of a difference. Like I feel like if it isn't G2 it isn't worth a bother 😅

So like I just needed to share bc I know what I'll do 😅

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Okay me again. The Sunrise with mane shape & color & 6/9 markings whom I've kinged is getting close to 15yo.

She didn't sire ANY sunrises with more than 6 markings & the mane 😭 And today I got this:
https://www.lioden.com/lion.php?id=794216600015

I feel like she's mocking me. I have still 8 days left till free retirement. But if she won't give me sth better... should I king it? I have almost 280 project lions with Savage Anjeer/Cinnabar/Cimmerian. And a back up of current step (base+mane+6/9 marks) just in case.

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Amazing progress!
Apologies for not being here to talk things through, i'm surprised none others have chimed in on this fun project :D

Ah indeed~ Those marking counts can sure be tricky!
I love how clear the current Villanelle's stud box is, it makes it easy to see what's missing
Nothing greater than this 9/13 or close (7/8 with different steps that you have less of?) has appeared since, correct?

Sleuthing attempts: From what I can see, the current backup/sidestep seems to be Minus eyes, & switch 9 for 8 ?
Then various breeders with different combos, but mostly only a few traits?

Are you also collecting little side projects & detours for variations or have those appeared through happenstance ?

From your messages here the vibe appears to be that things are drifting/bloating off in a random direction, hope the staggered progress leg yields back to proper paths.


(Edit: I've found the marking back-up! ctrl+c ctrl+v with mane, minus eyes- So the current marking stack config would be safe even if you needed to breed more of those 8's, or trade out for another massbreedable trait- awesome. )

Are you at/past the stage of bloated territory?

I'd be happy to try to offer some thoughts if you have an idea where you'd like to guide them!

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