Posted by Figuring out the rosette / how to triple your odds

Zaba (#296262)

Divine
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Posted on
2024-03-13 12:15:31
***all information in this thread is due to change, i am testing thousands of cubs every day and so unexpected results do happen.


FINDINGS SO FAR:




You have a 1/300 chance to breed ANY random rosette (except shaded, soft, bushveld, or briar)
But if your king has a certain marking, you get a SECOND 1/300 roll for whatever shape that marking is associated with

so essentially, there's a 1/2 chance the random rosette a king pops out is related to no factors whatsoever. But the other half is dictated by some trait. this is evident in every single test, half the rosettes make no sense but the other half follows a strict pattern. That might be what's been to elusive about them, throwing off so many people.


things that give you a second roll:
feline markings(for heavy and inverted heavy)
Mane markings(for shaded)
Unders markings (for soft)

things that REDUCE your chance:
Margay markings (cut your chances somewhere between 1/2 or 1/3)
Margay will override your total boosts to 0.2-0.1% no matter what markings your king has.
---

Short: Even if you do meet the criteria to spawn a certain rosette type, there's a 50% chance the rosette spawned will be unrelated. All inverted rosettes, the original rosette shape, and heavy rosettes can be spawned without any criteria. Example: Your king has a mane marking- half his RR cubs will be shaded rosettes and the other half could be inverted.

Inverted rosettes are completely random- including their shape. You don't have to meet the criteria for a shaded rosette to spawn an inverted shaded rosette.
It is possible to control the color of a RR but it isn't guaranteed. If the feline/mane/unders marking is dark, it will spawn more dark rosettes. If the feline/mane/unders is gold, it will spawn more gold rosettes.



Combining all criteria traits will enable you to produce all rosette types with a 0.9% spawn rate.(Feline carries the 0.9% spawn rate, you can combine it with the other shapes to boost your odds)

---
The criteria


Criteria Shaded, Soft, Bushveld, Briar

No Criteria Rosette, All Inverted, Heavy, Most Colors


--

Shaded Requires one parent to have a mane marking

Soft Requires one parent to have a marking with "under" in the name. Includes Lace and Siamese so far.

Bushveld Requires one parent to have a green base, excludes Senegal and Bushveld Shaded

Briar Requires one parent to have a 'white' marking, includes vitiligo

Heavy Boosted by Feline markings, but can occur randomly

Heavy and heavy inverted can be boosted, but they can show up in any breeding
Shaded MUST have a mane marking
Soft MUST have an unders marking (includes lace)
Bushveld MUST have a green-based parent (Excludes Senegal, excludes shaded bushveld)
Mottled is inherited only of course
Briar MUST have a parent with a white marking. This includes inherently white markings like the BO vitiligos.

Roll order: Random rosettes are the first markings to roll, even able to spawn over gnawrocked markings. If markings had a roll order like mutations did, they would be the hybrid roll. Using ochre powders and leopard tails at the same time is completely safe because of it,
You can only spawn 1 random rosette per cub

Disproved theories:


"Cat-like" markings do not increase your odds. In fact, some lower your odds
Base does not contribute to the rosette's color (excluding bushveld)
Your king doesn't require certain markings to spawn a random rosette in general. A completely markingless pairing can still produce one
Having multiple criteria markings does not increase your odds even more. Lioden only runs a single "true/false" check on whether your king has it or not.
Day vs Night breeding does not impact your chances

Unconfirmed trends



If its possible to dictate the slot of a RR via a marking
If the Unders requirement includes ALL underside related markings or only a select group (it is known that lace can produce soft despite not having unders in the name)


Random Rosette Bugs Found


- Briar/Bushveld shaded rosettes can appear without their criteria being met (likely a bug with criteria transferring to the new shape)
- Senegal is not considered a green-base yet, so it can't spawn Bushveld

Markings that do not affect RRs


- Most listed markings have only been tested once, so some may be added or removed if a second test occurs.
- Lace, mottled vents, siamese, feline unders,

Test 1 - control


 

Test 2 - feline boost


 

Test 3 - Lace boost


  

Test 4 - Onyx boost


 

Test 5 - Unders boost


 

Test 6 - multiple felines


 

Test 7 - Combining Onyx and Feline


 


Test 8 - Testing Unders again


 

Test 9 - Testing Shaded


 

Test 10 - All three



 


Trouble-shooting



Help! I produced a rosette that didn't follow the patterns in the post!

- Please take time to read it again, since there are A LOT of ifs, ands, and buts. Please consider the fact that testing is still underway, we have established a ton of new info but not everything.

Common issues: I produced a shaded rosette without a mane marking parent?
Note: Briar shaded and Bushveld shaded follow different patterns than normal, your rosette is likely one of those colors.

Please do not submit records of rosette cubs, the chance of either an altered parent or tampered rosette are too high for us to use them. We want to keep testing as close to the verifable game mechanics as possible.



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Edited on 15/05/24 @ 15:18:48 by Zaba (#296262)

Zaba (#296262)

Divine
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Posted on
2024-03-15 08:53:47
Sirah, I'm actually testing that today! Right now, I know that there is some sort of priority since feline+manemark can only make shadeds, so I'm going to see where soft lies in that priority and if all three boost the chance. Also will be testing if it's possible to control all the rosettes to be seal via the color of the mother marks.



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🩸—Brutus|
G2 LEO FISSURE (#245285)

Impeccable
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Posted on
2024-03-15 09:09:26
Hope you don't mind the comment, but this is absolutely fascinating to me!! My current king produced a inverted soft rosette cub not too long ago, and I was trying to figure out the factors-- but turns out the mom has two feline marks! Which, i thought was just really cool honestly. I bred my king to the same lioness today, so I'm curious to see if it'll produce a similar result? (Though I doubt it, considering the chances)

https://www.lioden.com/lion.php?id=794214203318 < the cub btw!



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Zaba (#296262)

Divine
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Posted on
2024-03-16 11:47:01
Update: test 11
-Senegal cannot produce Bushveld rosettes, despite being a green base.
-Bushveld shaded rosette follows a different pattern than all other bushveld rosettes, but it still follows the shaded criteria. This is likely a coding bug where Bushveld's criteria didn't carry over to the new rosette shape.


-Strange note: throughout the tests, there is a vague pattern showing up. If a random rosette spawns in a slot close to the marking that spawned it, the color is more likely to match. The further the rosette is from the slot that spawned it, the more likely it is to be an unrelated color. This is sometimes proven wrong but it's often consistent, so I'll categorize it as too vague to rely on.

** I know the test 11 toggle is broken, but it is typed and coded as it normally is. Try to ignore it.



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Edited on 16/03/24 @ 11:48:27 by Zaba (#296262)

Zaba (#296262)

Divine
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Posted on
2024-03-16 21:30:45
Update: test 12
I think I reached the word cap so the test details are going to be here from now on:
Test 12: to breed a briar
Along with Bushveld, Briar was also a finicky one. I wanted to see if it also had special criteria or if there was a way to boost it's spawn rate.
In the past, I produced one briar rosette using a white marking. But a single briar rosette in the dozens I've produced is insanely rare, so I wanted to see if we can manipulate that rarity to get more than we should.
So I compared 8 kings who produced a random briar-colored rosette and concluded the following:
all of them had a pink marking (briar, peach, cherry, ardor, sunrise, dawn, ukame, lilac)
This could have been a stylistic choice, but I wanted to see just how much it correlated

Dad has two markings, mom has no markings.

dad: 794212864346 (feline 4 lilac in slot 2, briar panther in slot 6)
mom: 794199327140
scrys: 900
RRs: 5
RR 1: Bone inverted shaded rosette in slot 13
RR 2: Brown rosette in slot 11
RR 3: Ginger rosette in slot 18
RR 4: Gold inverted shaded rosette in slot 2
RR 5: Saffron inverted shaded rosette in slot 4

conclusion: pink markings do not increase the chance of getting a briar rosette, but they definitely do have some way to be boosted that hasn't been uncovered yet.

next test: seeing if margay affects anything



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Fiery Lioness (#298660)

Sweetheart
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Posted on
2024-03-16 22:52:23
This is probably not gonna be that useful, but I still have this rosette that I randomly got from the giving tree back when I was new to the site (which was about 2 years ago). link to lioness
It’s not going to be much help since I don’t have any info about the father, however, the mother is still in the game.


Edit: I also have this lioness. I know for sure that this lioness’s rosette appeared randomly. (Because I bred her) The mother doesn’t exist anymore because I foddered her, but I remember she had a cream base, and I’m pretty sure she had 3 marking (but I can’t guarantee it, neither do I know what any of the marking are)



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Edited on 16/03/24 @ 23:01:53 by Fiery Lioness (#298660)

Zaba (#296262)

Divine
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Posted on
2024-03-17 11:31:51
Update: test 13

Margay has been suspected to affect rosettes for a while, being grouped alongside feline and lace with suspicions. So I wanted to check if these claims had any effect on the data.
Dad has one marking, mom has no markings.

dad: 794122431148 (cream margay in slot 7)
mom: 794199327140 (no marks)
scrys: 900
RRs: 1
RR 1: Fiery inverted shaded rosette in slot 2

Conclusion: Margay does not affect rosettes. But these are by far the worst results I've gotten, perhaps it lowers the odds?

Next test: thank you everyone for your input. I'll be testing white markings next since they seem to be on most parents of briar rosettes.



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Zaba (#296262)

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Posted on
2024-03-17 15:37:46
Update: test 14
Briar has been a pain to replicate, and I was only able to get 1 using a parent with a white marking. After checking several other instances of briar rosettes, I found that all the parents shared a white marking, so I decided to test it out. I also took the opportunity to see what would happen if two lions with all 3 shape criteria had cubs.

Dad has three markings, mom has 3 markings

dad: 794139087151 (Slot 1: Feline 7 White - Slot 2: White Tips - Slot 10: White Underfur)
mom: 794110612547 (Slot 1: White Hair Band - Slot 2: Feline 7 White - Slot 10: Under White)
scrys: 900
RRs: 6
RR 1: Briar Shaded Rosette in slot 12
RR 2: Auburn Heavy Rosette in slot 11
RR 3: Red Shaded Rosette in slot 12
RR 4: Inverted Rosette Saffron in slot 13
RR 5: Doubloon Shaded Rosette in slot 11
RR 6: Inverted Soft Rosette Silky in slot 3

Conclusion: A white marking is necessary for Briar to spawn, includes inherently white markings like vitiligo.
Most of the rosettes spawned on the same 3 slots, suggesting that there is a way to control slots.

NOTE: I added a table, very fancy right?



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Edited on 17/03/24 @ 15:38:12 by Zaba (#296262)

Bee (#288113)

Sapphic
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Posted on
2024-03-17 15:44:47
I'm always excited to see your updates !! So excited to see the briar criteria :)



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Mots - RP Loved🏒 (#5378)

Good Natured
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Posted on
2024-03-17 17:19:40
Would this lioness and her cub help you any?

https://www.lioden.com/lion.php?id=794214502793 - He has briar rosette.

Mom Has shaded briar rosette in opposite slot of the briar rosette and has no mark in slot 7.



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Bluebell [10xRos |
20xBO | G1] (#263841)


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Posted on
2024-03-17 20:36:11
Do you think the rosette chance may increase the more markings there are (any marks)?



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Zaba (#296262)

Divine
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Posted on
2024-03-17 20:43:21
Bluebell, doesn't seem like it. A pairing of 6 total markings produced less than a pairing with just 1 marking. Throughout the tests there is kind of a mix between who gets more RRs and who gets less, independent of marking number. If your king has 1 feline mark, that's all it checks for. If your king has 9 feline marks, it's still only going to check for one.



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Bluebell [10xRos |
20xBO | G1] (#263841)


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Posted on
2024-03-17 20:57:10
Ah gotcha, so would that mean that normal markings override rosettes spawns? (if the chance is lower with more marks)



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BravoButts (#455960)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2024-03-17 20:58:41
So, does it not matter whether either parent already has rosettes?

Also, how are you testing thousands of cubs per day?



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Bee (#288113)

Sapphic
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Posted on
2024-03-17 20:59:59
I believe they use a scrying stone to simulate the cub outcomes Bravo :)



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Zaba (#296262)

Divine
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Posted on
2024-03-17 21:15:50
Bluebell, actually no! Somebody ran into an instance where a random rosette spawned *over* a marking they gnawrocked. Meaning that random rosettes are at the highest priority, above even gnawrocks. If markings had a roll order like mutations did, random rosettes would be the hybrid roll.
Bravo, yep scrying stone. Random rosettes vs inherited rosettes are completely different things. Inherited rosettes are from parents, while random rosettes show up in random breedings. It's like getting a mutie without using breeding items and without having mutated parents: possible and rare!
No other marking can show up randomly like a rosette, which makes them enjoyable for players to study and breed for.



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