Posted by NPC Battle revamp/Stat Use/Cap

Axel (#6627)

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Posted on
2015-01-14 05:54:49
Hey everyone.

This idea came into being in connection to my other Suggestion about a Biome Revamp.

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I was trying to think of new ways to apply stats to PVE, or at least to NPC fights. The problem with all appropriate ways is that stats are simply inheritable. The base stats are growing and that is something one just cannot stop. The next generation will always be always higher in stats than the previous. So maybe the stat growth was slowed to a crawl but it is still ongoing. And will continue.

One cannot find a suitable system that would work with the growing stats and can be fair to both new members, casual players, active players...

So I came to you with a new idea I have been working on for some days. It is still in-progress and I will need help with thinking up formulas and equations. Mine is quite easy and maybe a bit faulty. But this is just an example.


The base of the idea is that we put a cap... an invisible cap on stats when encountering NPCs in battle, depending on Biome, level, and skill.

I have worked on a complete system as well, so let us read on:

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New Stats Usage in PVE:



Stats would gain new uses in battles, all connected to what they are named.
Strength increases damage output, Stamina increases health, agility and speed increases your dodge abilities, while smarts affects your accuracy. All depending on how much stats you have. No more random misses or sudden unexplained low damage output.

However, we all know that there is a difference between a lvl1 and lvl1 lion nowadays. One can have 15 stats, the other can have 1500. This way the Biomes make no sense and NPC battles could become all too easy for the latter if stats indeed are the same way applied.

So how about...


We put an invisible cap on the max stat that can be utilized in NPC battles?



Traits:
- Cap increases at each Biome.
- Cap is affected by skill. - See below.
- Submales should not gain skill from patrols, only stats. They should build it as leader.
- Stats get removed equally from all traits according to their % value compared to overall stats in order to fit into cap. This does NOT remove the stats from your lion! Just for the NPC fight.
- Cap has no say in stat breeding and training, does not hinder statgain and breeding for stats. Hence why I call it invisible cap. It only, strictly only appears at NPC battles.
- Higher stats enable easier NPC fights, so having higher stats pays off despite the cap.
- Cap does not affect PVP.

Suggested max stat caps:
(Took new members into account, and that perhaps with explore stat interactions statgain might be a bit higher for male lions -see below)

Level 1 - Temperate Savannah - Cap 50 stats
Level 2-5 - Shrubland - Cap 100 Stats
Level 6-10 - Tropical Forest - Cap 250 stats
Level 11-15 - Dry Savannah - Cap 450 stats
Level 16-20 - Rocky Hills - Cap 650 stats
Level 21-25 - Arid Desert - Cap 800 stats
Level 26 - 30 - Marshlands - Cap 1000 stats
Level 31 + - Waterhole - Cap 1500 stats

Eg.:
A lion has these traits as lvl1 lion:
Strength: 424
Stamina: 387
Agility: 438
Speed: 432
Smarts: 393

Actual stats considered for NPC battles at lvl 1 Biome with max cap:
Strength: 10
Stamina: 9
Agility: 11
Speed: 10
Smarts: 10

Same lion with lvl20 biome max cap:
Strength: 130
Stamina: 123
Agility: 137
Speed: 137
Smarts: 123

(My formula per stat trait:
Eg.: Strength for lvl 20 - 424/2074 = 0,2.--- 0,2x650 = 130)

--Of course formula can be changed and applied by developers as they see fit, just make sure we can follow it so we can see our progress--

Upon reaching next biome, the previous cap is lifted to match the cap of the next biome. Newest cap applies even if lion goes back to previous Biome. This way NPCs in previous Biome become even easier to beat but of course will give less rewards.

Eg.: Your lion was lvl10 with 500 stats. Reached max skill of 120, so max cap of 250 stats is reached for Tropical Forest. Only 250 stats apply for the biome. Then lion reaches lvl11. Goes to Dry Savannah. 250 cap is lifted to 450 stats cap. Lion can go back to Tropical Forest, where his stat cap remains 450. Has more stats to fight with and NPCs become easier.

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Skill penalty:

Each Biome as a max cap which only applies fully if the max skill for Biome is reached.
Eg.: Rocky Hills - 240 skill needed to reach max 650 stat cap.

Anything lower will give % cap penalty according to how much % difference there is between max skill and current skill.

Eg.: Rocky Hill - 240 skill. If lion has only 216 -being at lvl18-, then he gets a 10% cap penalty. So his cap is 585 stats instead of 650.

The skill penalty would be a security measure that high statted lions won’t be able to one-hit kill NPCs of biomes the moment they enter and they feel the challenge of battling through the Biomes.

Eg.: Enter Rocky Hills with lvl 16, so your max skill for lvl 16 is 192. Max skill for Biome is 240. Lion spends lvl 16 with a 20% cap penalty, so your max stats for this level is 520. Even if your lion has 2000 stats, only 520 will be applied at NPC battles.

Of course, developers are free to think up a more complex formula. But the main point is that we should be able to follow our progress.
Penalty can grow with Biomes. And penalty can be taken out at lvl1 and lowered for next Biome.

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NPC Stats:

NPCs should have strictly set stat ranges, in which they pick the stats randomly for each NPC fight, thus generating the bonuses according to it. All-Biome creatures’ stats are set as the middle ground of the Biome they appear in.

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Unlocked Biomes:

Maybe all Biomes could be unlocked for all players. Cap, level, skill would stop high statted lions from acing all biomes with one-hit kills. But bonuses would help to have a better chance to win in higher biomes, paying off hard work for stats. Higher level Biome NPCs -if defeated- would give higher rewards, depending on the level difference.

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Changes to Boosts



Boosts remain completely untouched and independent of the stat cap per Biome. They apply according to your whole stats.
(Maybe stats should be visible? So we can plan our tactics instead of stabbing in the dark.)



Boosts should be giving different advantages in NPC battles.
- Strength - 5% damage bonus per arrow
- Stamina - 5% Health bonus per arrow - Visible health numbers!
- Agility - 5% dodge bonus per arrow
- Speed - 5% chance of double attacks per arrow
- Smarts - 5% accuracy per arrow

There can be more bonuses than just one if more of your stats are higher than the NPC’s.

These apply for enemy too if they have a bonus.

Bonus arrows applied: - Per stat trait (Eg.: Strength)
1. arrow: 5 stat difference
2. arrow: 15 stat difference
3. arrow: 45 stat difference
4. arrow: 135 stat difference
5. arrow: 405 stat difference

This way the greater bonuses will be harder to acquire. They after all will mean more.
Developers can modify them as they see fit.

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Stat Gain Modified:



We also should be able to gather specific stats in order to truly work on a strategy and what kind of lion we want. (Eg.: concentrate on speed and agility, or concentrate on strength and stamina, or any combination).

Idea:
Take out Sharpen Claws interaction and have new explore events which give you choices in how to solve them. According to your choices they give specific stats, giving you the chance to build your lion.
Submale should get the chance to concentrate on specific stats too when patrolling. Maybe send them out to do different tasks instead of just patrolling which will train different traits.

This will not give more stats than what we are already able to acquire, just give us the choice in what we want our lion to be like. I don’t ask to give us more ways to gain stats, just give us control over what we get.

The lower the stats of a lion are, the more such interactions would appear. Just to aid new members.

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PVP Battles:



PVP battle has the same interaction choices as current NPC battles. Same bonuses and stat abilities apply.

No cap, full stats apply.
They are automatically applying the stats and bonuses of your opponent -opponent doesn’t need to be online to battle you.
PVP battle for exp should give far more exp than what you can get from explore, due to you losing 20 energy instead of just 10. Receive double exp?

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Other Player Suggestions:



Kima (#53124) - I was thinking Impression might have to do with giving a small bonus to “Roar” as that tends to scare or chase off enemies? Just a small bonus, but the more ‘Impressive’ you are, the more chance you have to intimidate something to run off with a loud roar.

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Thank you for reading,



This suggestion has 87 supports and 13 NO supports.



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Edited on 18/01/15 by Axel (#6627)

Slade (#36600)

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Posted on
2015-01-18 06:21:42
Again, its over thinking.

A complicated coding system isnt needed.

To adjust the battling system, make damage and hit points more practical to the creature encountered. There does not need to be a stat cap at all.

Hit points and hit chance should be the only thing that needs adjusting. There does not need to be an elaborate system put into place.

If a caracal encounters a lion in real life, then yes, hes going to get a one hit smack from a paw that can strike with 500lbs of force, even from a weak lion. Such npcs should reward very little EXP. Not a terribly hard adjustment to the battle system.

In real life, lions dont take on stronger opponents with the idea that they will get stronger. So taking on a rhino should not be something anyone can do, no matter what the skill/stat level, however, if someone wants to try it out and they win, then a suitable reward should be given.

Logic also dictates that if a lion takes on a pack of hyenas or dogs, its very likely the lion will lose. It should not be an easy encounter. Lions lose their kill to hyenas on a regular basis, so being able to beat every encounter with dogs is not practical.

If people want to win battles, there are strategies. Yes, some battles will be lost. That happens.

Build skill/stats by doing PVP. Dont rely completely on explore encounters to build your stats and skills. Even a rolled lion can do well. Each level you cna build a certain amount of skill, cap that off then go to explore. Use strategy and planning when meeting beasts. If you lose, move on, dont get hung up on a loss.

On that note I will concede that the event NPCs are over tuned, especially for weak beasts, but they are beatable.




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Axel (#6627)

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Posted on
2015-01-19 20:42:32
I rather like to see and plan than keep having random chances. Adjusting hit chance doesnt help. Still random. Still nothing one can build and make better.

It is one thing that you dont see NPC battling something significant. Again, this suggestion is only going to affect those who really like NPC battles but despise the randomness, the unexplained defeats, and the ever changing NPC difficulty. Those who want to have logic and a system in all this. So the stats, the level, and the difficulties of the Biome make sense. Who want to see some uses for skill than just being.......... there.

This would give a system.

In no way am I asking to make sure we win all battles. Animals will have different strengths and you wont win all the time, especially on a low level low stat lion with a very low skill.

Besides... why even implement an NPC that is impossible to kill or one-hit kills you no matter what you do? Like the Black Mamba. It one-hit kills. It bites you in its first move even if you have all 5 arrows at agility boosts. See the problem? That boost should count. But it doesnt.

I prefer a system, something I can work with. Where I can see why I lost and why I won. There is no such thing as tactic even with the current battle system, please stop saying that. Yes, some do have a specific weakness and strengths but most are just random. You need to stab in the dark and guess what will work next.

I am sorry you dont like the idea, but I will still press on with this. We need a system. That is all.



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Edited on 20/01/15 by Axel (#6627)

FraidyCat (#51162)

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Posted on
2015-01-20 10:55:20
ABSOLUTE SUPPORT! This is how Pokemon does it, this is how Fire Emblem does it, and this type of system is proven to not only be effective but fair and competitive.



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Twi (#1574)

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Posted on
2015-01-29 20:08:40
Supported :3.



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Shu .Gaggle™
Clean.G4 [5K] (#42)

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Posted on
2015-10-03 08:29:23
Support. :> I would absolutely love a system that actually makes sense for fights. Honestly, I haven't really seen that much difference in winning battles between my 500 statted lion and my 3k statted lion. Sometimes the 3k misses 5x in a row and ends up losing in spite of the fact that I've got four arrows to my side. I use the exact same strategy for fighting right now with both lions, with similar results, which is really making the existence of the arrows seem obsolete.

It'd also make me more a lot more interested in skill, because right now, past 70 or so, which would be when you're pretty much good to win against everyone in PVPs, I don't even know what their use is anymore. It just makes me annoyed that I didn't get another stat.



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Ticklicous [1k+ G4
Ferus] (#490)

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Posted on
2015-10-11 15:32:55
I honestly support. Not gonna lie, with the way stats are now it's still quite a challenge to beat some enemies, heck, I have gone back to the lv1 area with my 1600+ stat male I have now and still have lost a few battles. It's almost as if stats just aren't as useful as they potentially could be at this point. So I would love to see some system that actually put stats to a bit better use.

Plus it's kind of embarrassing to be losing to a bunch of animals that lions irl could kill with a single pimp slap or something. XD Like, I just radiate sodium after losing to things like this event's Rabid Red Fox for example. -shot-



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Edited on 11/10/15 @ 22:35:07 by Ticklicous (#490)

bella x (#61581)

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Posted on
2015-11-19 10:06:26
This sounds awesome however I don't understand why you want to complicate fighting and exploring. The coding and boat load of money needed for this is more than necessary. Don't get me wrong I love strategy and this has strategy written all over it. Therefore I will support though I don't think it's the first thing on our list of ideas.



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Axel (#6627)

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Posted on
2015-11-19 19:11:52
It isnt really that complicated. Put a limit on stats in NPC fights in a specific %, then give NPCs their own stat range to give us an escalating difficulty in biomes. This is all the idea is about.



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bella x (#61581)

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Posted on
2015-11-19 22:48:44
@ Axel,
I see your point there. This does bring better segments amongst the game. It brings strategy, simplistic ways of leveling, and many other tremendous things to Lioden. If this suggestion happened to come reality the rating of the game may escalate because of how equivalent it sounds like with Pokemon and other games following parallel.

However, with every up there is a down. Having this project be linear is difficult because of the many objections. One of those drawbacks is how, DharSll stated earlier, the realism of this update to the contrast of the Savannah its self. In the savannah if you come across a leopard in a forest it isn't going to be any stronger if you find it again at a watering hole. Your not going to find a fragile poacher in one town than the world's manliest poacher in another. Furthermore the trouble of programming this will be difficult. Putting a range on every NPC? That's preposterous! The coding, time, and money piled into making it work without inadequacy is something Abbey doesn't need to waste on.

Therefore I think the flaws win the majority. Still a magnificent idea if you ask me. Keep working on it!



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Edited on 20/11/15 @ 05:50:21 by Blindspot x (#61581)

Axel (#6627)

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Posted on
2015-11-19 23:14:11
This is why I think the watering hole needs a change as well. It needs its own NPCs and not a lazy 'everything goes' that we have now. NPC placements need to correspond to a logic. Put easy-ish NPCs (and even put younger versions of NPCs) in lower biomes and the higher the biome is, the tougher and more powerful NPCs can be found there, with the waterhole holding the most tough ones.

Obviously, event NPCs are a very special case. Their lvl and stat range would hold the 'average middle' for the biome to make them beatable for all (although not making it a 100% win without a proper tactic). They arent entirely part of the gameplay, only during events.

Well, no matter what, if we want a system for biomes and NPC battles, it will cost work and coding. Plus if Lioden really wants to concentrate more on gameplay instead of breeding, then the Biomes and NPCs is where they could start, to give us a feeling of actually progressing in the game.



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bella x (#61581)

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Posted on
2015-11-21 15:03:55
@Axel,
I agree wholly. There should be NPCs with ranging types of creatures but not maximum and minimum levels on them.

I presume maximum levels would help, indeed. This may stray from the realism but it would assist with lower leveled lions. The idea of it sounds relieving actually! Without having to fight overpowered elephants and stalwart panthers will provide a favor to almost all of us but that destroys the realism! Many people are satisfied with the way it is now. The cons and pros vary too much to decide whether this idea results in a good turn or a bad.

However with my current thoughts on this I documented an idea I assume you already explained (but I didn't quite understand). Different creatures for different biomes. Such as a leopard for the jungle and a turtle for the marsh. Whatever the animal or creature truly lives in. This would oblige having the same creature in a different biomedical however. This also means more art for our ONLY artist to work on.



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Axel (#6627)

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Posted on
2015-11-21 19:38:12
There will be more creatures introduced with the new lvl biomes. I am sure there will be more than enough NPCs to choose from. No need for new art. There are plenty NPCs to go around and have enough that are all-biome NPCs.

I see it more like this: It is far more unrealistic that a lion -who grew stronger and more skilled, experienced during his years- finds beating far smaller NPCs very hard. What this idea would do, would be nothing more than a very much realistic progress system. The more skilled you are, the easier NPCs will be to beat, especially when you return to a previous Biome.

While the battle FAQ Xylax made says that NPCs in previous Biomes are easier to beat already and give lower rewards, what we actually see is that they are just as hard to beat, but give indeed smaller rewards.

You grow in skill. You grow in experience. Your battles will be a bit easier this way, especially when you go back to the much weaker NPCs in previous Biomes. This is not unrealistic. This is actually far more realistic than what we have now. Lion mauled to death by caracals even in higher lvls? No, sir.



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bella x (#61581)

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Posted on
2015-11-22 01:58:05
@Axel,

Ah, I see your point now. I myself have been beaten by measly creatures from time to time if I decide to return to lower biomes. This is both embarrassing and frustrating. Therefore making it less realistic. You have proven your point and I applaud you, sir.



(Is it just me who thought this argument was fun? I don't know. I guess I just enjoy debating.)



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X I O [divine
trip.rosette] (#34167)

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Posted on
2015-12-17 13:16:44
Maybe we can have the stat cap adjusted to players differently? I mean, rolled kings tend to stumble on the Arid Desert sometimes, and then we have leaderboard kings.
So maybe something like a formula that the coding would use to generate a random number that would be reasonable? Nothing complicated, maybe something like King's stats-5(times by level)=end result of NPC stat.
So if a lion has 150 stats and level 7
150-5(7)=115
115 would be the number the NPC stats would fly around (100-130 stats)
So the NPC would have around 115 stats to distribute into the NPC's skillset.
This could be rigged in someway so that the stats are more likely to go into a certain area of skill than others (strength, agility)

We can use that for common NPCs, like lions and hyenas. But for the bigger ones/special (snake) ones, we can use a different formula?



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