Posted by Breeding overhaul: sliding shade scale

🐢 FlipicusPup
main [S2D] (#22800)

Punisher
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Posted on
2016-05-14 00:07:48
Okay so the news post says it should be easier to breed for specific colours, but no matter which way I look at it, this update has made things more difficult, not more easy :/
If you want you can skip to the conclusion, but you may not understand why I'm proposing my changes.

Point 1: Dark x light breeding only give medium. Only. Gives. Medium. Not even medium x medium makes all medium, so if you're breeding for a medium base, your best shot is to.. Not keep any mediums in your pride?? That's a bit ridiculous, if I'm breeding for a medium base, chances are I want to keep some of the lions with it around.

Point 2: Breeding medium to medium only gives you 50% medium. Wow, us medium shade lovers are getting a little screwed over, there's no guarentee it'll get either parents base.
Something important to consider here is the base rates of 'super-specials' where one parent has to be that base, all mediums in this catagory have now had their chances HALVED, even if you use a second parent of the same base. This includes lilac, inferno and hematite. Lilac is notorious for it's low pass rate anyway, and a lot of people didn't bother with inferno because of the large number of golden fails in the old system.

Point 3: Logically, the way it works doesn't make sense, having all mediums from dark x light pairings suggests a sliding scale, which means medium x medium should make all medium bases too. Having medium x medium only give half medium bases suggests an entirely different system all together. It's baffling me what process is supposed to be going on with the shades, is it like mixing paint, or is it like a co-dominant gene?

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Conclusion: Hopefully you now understand some of my concerns, so my proposed changes are these.

- Make it a sliding scale of colour, putting the same shade together produces same shaded cubs. Medium x medium needs to be 100% medium if dark x dark is or light x light 100% the parent's shade.

- Make the genetics for shading work 50/50 for light/medium and dark/medium pairings still.

- Make Dark/light pairing produce either 40% dark, 40% light and 20% medium, or a 33/33/33, or 20/20/60 split. I would like this as even as possible to go with the sliding scale idea.

- Do not keep it all dark/light as producing all medium so it is impossible to get the parents base, it ruins the variety you'd want from picking polar opposite parents, which is what we had with the old shading system. Post link to another suggestion (from someone else) just for that is HERE in case you don't agree with the medium x medium changes.

For someone who looked at the propsed models and thought medium would be great to specialise in, this is more than a little disappointing, I really hope it will be changed to become easier too breed only what we want.
If you have any other points to bring up, I'd love to hear them, and suggestions for improvement are always welcome ^^

Flip X



This suggestion has 56 supports and 1 NO support.



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Edited on 14/05/16 @ 10:01:03 by FlipicusPup [S2D] (Liefde) (#22800)

Blue Pigeon 🐦 (#68580)

Warrior
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Posted on
2016-05-14 00:12:18
Very much a support. If I don't want to breed mediums, but perhaps want to breed light and dark bases, the lions I use cannot intersect genetically. If I have a light king and dark lionesses, then it is impossible for me to get either light or dark with that combination. After reading this through, I now realise that this new system is more restrictive than the old one, and means that some breeding projects for multiple colours are too time consuming.



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Valana [HM] (#44616)


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Posted on
2016-05-14 01:06:57
I'm a Sepia-breeder. Sepia is a medium base now, apparently. It's also, like Lilac, very hard to breed and you need at leats one parent with the base for it to even pass. Your post pretty much sums up my first thoughts on this topic. Why are only 50% of my cubs going to even be medium (not even talking about getting a Sepia) while a Celestial breeder, for exmple, will get 100% dark Cubs - always assuming you breed Sepia x Sepia and Celestial x Celestial, which you would, if you aim for that base, because with the super-special breed only bases it increases the chances of the base passing, if both parents have it.


The point Blue Pigeon makes is also a very good one - the new system seems to limit you to choose between light and dark, or be flooded with medium cubs by default. Doesn't really seem fair either. I'd be ok with it, if medium had a higher pass-rate if the parents are on opposite ends of teh spectrum,but you should still be able to at least get a dark or light cub.


You ahve my support.



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🐝 Detective (#19805)

Protector
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Posted on
2016-05-14 02:24:12
So much support. This medium model really makes no sense with how the light/dark/mediums pass :(



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Sisi (#23003)

Dreamboat of Ladies
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Posted on
2016-05-14 02:40:50
http://www.lioden.com/topic.php?id=304429231451

This was already suggested in a thread made yesterday!



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🐢 FlipicusPup
main [S2D] (#22800)

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Posted on
2016-05-14 02:51:46
Thanks everyone for the supports :)

@Sisi: I'm aware there's another post about it, but this is mainly for making medium x medium breeders actually able to get the base they want, the light X dark thing was tagged on at the end of the proposed changes because I saw the other post. My main issue is that if you want to breed a medium special base, or only breed for the medium shade of any group, it's pretty much impossible. If you notice I already mentioned there's another post about it, I just didn't get around to linking it until now ^^

EDIT: I've linked Shu's post and hopefully made it more obvious that my main point is about medium breedings :)



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Edited on 14/05/16 @ 10:02:03 by FlipicusPup [S2D] (Liefde) (#22800)

Bezthiel πŸ‰ (#81210)

Lone Wanderer
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Posted on
2016-05-23 08:09:33
I'm not liking this at all either. Apparently after this change, I like mediums. I'd like to breed for mostly hematite/lilac based lions. And the best way to get medium shades is to ... not? breed either lilac or hematite? Uh... what? And now there's half the (extremely low) chance for me to end up with either a hematite or lilac base. It's really frustrating to breed lilac/lilac and get obsidian of all things.

I guess this might have made it a bit easier for those interested in purely dark or light based lions. Save that if you breed skyward/ice there's no chance for either of those bases? For now, I'm still not really sure what I'm going to do with my den since it doesn't look like there's any way to assure mediums.



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Laszlo (#10825)

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Posted on
2016-05-24 00:31:05
You got to consider both sides of the argument.

One side wants to be able to breed for specific bases but the other side wants to breed variety, not wishing to have a single shade all the time. That makes the pride monotonous.

What I would love to see is to have dark and light pairing produce all three shades with the exact same chances as the mediumxmedium.

I think the chances are -other than this- beneficial for both sides of the argument. Genetics made variety limited... let us not push this any further.



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Bezthiel πŸ‰ (#81210)

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Posted on
2016-05-24 02:56:53
I have considered both sides.

And if you want variety, you have the option of breeding your lionesses to studs that have different genetics. As before. But now I'm forced, absolutely forced, to have a huge variation in genetics when I breed to the same genetics, or even exact same coat.



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Laszlo (#10825)

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Posted on
2016-05-24 03:19:59
Why would I need to be forced to depend on other players when I want variety at least in the given limited field? It should be an option for me on default as I play. To me, it looks like you arent at all considering the other side of the argument, seeing you want to just have people use work-arounds.

The staff did, when they gave the chance for both at mediumxmedium.

Let us not forget that this same argument about studding can be applied to your side of the argument. Just keep one shade of lions and breed it to other shade studs. Yet, I dont say it because I think 50% of getting a medium would be more than enough chance. A bargain if you ask me and a perfect balance between both focus and variety breeders.

See it this way: variety breeders were beaten a lot by the developers when they introduced genetics and now even further with the introduction of medium genetics. I think there needs to be at least something for the variety breeders that is left. Leave them the crumbs from the bread, at least.



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Edited on 24/05/16 @ 10:45:58 by Laszlo (#10825)

Mots - RP LovedπŸ’ (#5378)

Prince of the Savannah
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Posted on
2016-05-24 03:24:18
I noticed that it's getting more impossible to breed skyward, which is one special base that I'm still trying for almost a year after the darn base was introduced. (And no, I do not have one. Feel free to check my den)

And I'm getting way more silver gray and albinos than before... granted they are all in the same light countershaded category. But I don't like all the defaults we keep getting if we are trying for certain bases. And I do have to agree on the hematite, that is hard now too. I don't have many if any lionesses that would actually match the criteria.



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🐢 FlipicusPup
main [S2D] (#22800)

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Posted on
2016-05-24 03:54:43
I think there's a rather large amount of variety you can get from the game, but breeding parents of the exact same colour, on any animal sim, or in real life, you'd expect more chance of getting a copy of the parent? For example, if I were to breed two black rats, what I expect to get is at least 75% black rats, if I were to breed two albino cats, I would expect all albino kittens.

As it stands, the fact that you can get so many different colours, with new bases being added all the time, and breed polar opposite parents and get a wide range of colours, is highly unrealistic and has a lot of possibilities. Add in the input of random albinos with no genetic factor whatsoever (I've recently had two pop up on the same day from different dark/dark, and dark/medium litters) and surprises abound. But this is why I don't understand why the system has been implemented to have the hyper-realism of co-dominant genes, when nothing else really works based on genetic factors.
I feel like it was unnecessary and also frustrating, forcing anyone who wants to specialise to have to do so in either dark or light, and putting all the already hard to breed bases in the medium category where they may as well die out. I already know a few people who have given up on lilac even before the addition of medium, simply because it was too hard to breed. There are less and less kings to choose from with the marks I like for these non-applicable super specials.

Anyway, for variety, all you would have to do, with the proposed 33% for each base-type split in dark/light pairings, would be to keep a lot of darks and lights from all colour shades around in your pride. That's what I'd be doing on my side account, which has everything from maroon and sunshine, to hallowed, ashen, slate, and prune. I think you're assuming a little that because I'm upset about not being able to focus on mediums in my main pride, that I don't try and breed any other bases. My side pride is based on having specials from every group and shade, covered in outrageously colourful marks, just for fun.



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Laszlo (#10825)

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Posted on
2016-05-24 04:14:41
I think the developers did mean for us to still face challenges. They didnt mean to make breeding completely straightforward, where each time you breed you will receive exactly what you expected.

If you think some bases are too hard to get, their pass rates are horrible, why not just make a suggestion thread for that, instead of making it impossible for variety breeders to exist. I am planning on getting light and dark based lions, which then I want to breed together to produce as many shades as possible, then use the mediums to keep going. I like variety. But with everything producing only one kind of thing... I will be severely limited. I already am, compared to the old randomized system. I really dont want to see anymore restrictions.

I think the most fair in this situation would be:

Dark/Dark = Dark
Light/Light = Light
Dark/Light = 25% dark, 25% light, 50% medium
Medium/Medium = 20% dark, 20% light, 60% medium
Dark/Medium: 45% Dark, 45% Medium, 10% Light
Light/Medium: 45% Light, 45% Medium, 10% Dark
(Last two because according to mediumxmedium, they can produce both)



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Bezthiel πŸ‰ (#81210)

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Posted on
2016-05-24 06:16:45
I don't understand what you mean by work-around, Laszlo. Could you explain? I thought studding was an integral part of this game if you wanted to introduce new genetics into your pride.



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Laszlo (#10825)

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Posted on
2016-05-24 07:31:08
The game focuses on you breeding your own lions, raising the best cubs to compete and survive, right? Which means, that although studding is part of the game, it should not be the number one way to get what you want.

A work-around is seeking achievement through other means than normal. The normal way is to just grab your lions and breed them together in your own pride, relying on nothing else and nobody else but yourself. Forcing certain people to pay extra is no way a fair solution. You got to give for both.

This is why I am all for satisfying both parties. People focusing on certain bases and shades get what they want with the current system of genetics but variety breeders should not be ignored either. They are a thing too. There is a point where there is too much restriction.



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Edited on 24/05/16 @ 14:33:18 by Laszlo (#10825)

🐢 FlipicusPup
main [S2D] (#22800)

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Posted on
2016-05-24 07:48:44
I don't think that's really the normal way Laszlo, seeing as we have both the trading centre and in-game studding options to stop people getting ripped off trying to do it other ways that were around before (traditional studding/transfers). If you tried to use just ncls with a rolled king, you wouldn't get ANY variety at all. There's also no 'best cubs', nor is there any competition within the game EXCEPT for breeding rare marks, bases, and high stats, none of which really do anything. I'm trying to make it so I can achieve both of my personal goals, on both my accounts. I don't understand really what you're trying to argue here with the 'work-around' business?

I do really like your model too, but I think that's still giving an unfair advantage to those who want to specialise in light or dark bases only, I still think medium and medium should only make medium, so that we aren't penalised too badly. Either that, or have light/light and dark/dark able to throw 10% medium and 10% the opposite shade, so that you have variety, but nobody gets an advantage when breeding, what do you think?



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