-LOCKED - A Statement About Moderating
Posted on 2019-02-21 12:54:31
Hi all, Abbey here on behalf of the admin and moderating teams.

We'd like to announce right now that in the coming weeks we are planning on removing moderator badges across the entire site. We are not demoting moderators or getting rid of any systems, we are just removing the badge from visible areas next to player names. We hope that this will make the game a better place to be for both players and moderators, and hope that moderators and players can have a less tense relationship with one another.

Addressing Moderating Concerns


We would like to take this opportunity to address some concerns that players have raised with regards to the moderating system.

The anonymity of moderators within the modbox has now been in effect for over a year and over this time we have seen that this system has worked very well from behind the scenes. However, we do acknowledge that there has been some scepticism from various members over how this system actually works.

So for the sake of transparency and clarification, we'd like to give some insight to our moderating practices and how the system works for moderators and admins versus members.

Firstly, a PSA:
Moderators and admins are two very different roles on the site.

Admins are the group of staff who handle the game's functionality and features. They each have different roles, but they talk with each other on a daily basis about various things regarding running the game. Admins decide when rules should change, when changes to the game should be made, they are responsible for the coding and artwork coordination, and general behind-the-scenes stuff. The community admins work daily with the moderators whereas the non-community admins do not.

Moderators are volunteer members of the team who help us handle rule-breaking members. They are sometimes asked for input on various changes to how we moderate, rule changes, but ultimately have no control over the main parts of the game. They do not have the ability to change event bars, or add items to shops, or anything like that. Moderators are purely for moderating the forums, chat and players as a whole. They enforce the rules, and have no ability to edit the game in any way.

Anonymous Moderators
On the front-end of the modbox, we changed it so that members could no longer see specifically which moderator was handling their ticket.

This change was made primarily to cease some of the targeting that staff were seeing from members after having a decision made on their ticket that the member disagreed with. Additionally, if a moderator took some time to respond, they would sometimes start receiving PMs.

A lesser-known reason for why we changed the modbox to only show "Moderating Team" is because we felt as though it was dishonest of us to claim that one single person handled a ticket. This sometimes turned into a moderator being disliked because they were viewed as being the sole person who made a decision that someone didn't like, when in fact that decision likely had the input and support of multiple moderators and an admin.

Additionally, ANY response from a specific admin came with the support and input of every single member on the admin team, regardless of who actually claimed and handled that ticket.

Why do tickets take so long sometimes?
Firstly, the vast majority of tickets have at least a second opinion from another moderator or an admin. Moderators do not moderate and make decisions alone as a rule. Those that take longer to resolve often have the input of a large portion of the moderating team and sometimes multiple admins. This takes time for everyone to have a discussion, give their input, and ultimately come to a decision on what to do.

Just like players, moderators act under a specific ruleset, they are under constant supervision of admins and other moderators. Moderators have never banned a user for no reason - we always act on information or reports. If we believe we have made a mistake in our decisions, we will try to correct it and inform the player involved.

Why did X get punished, but Y didn't? Why did Z get banned for doing nothing?
Because we don't discuss player punishments publicly, the only time any information about reprimands comes out is from the player themselves. Sometimes a player disagrees with a decision we have made and will tell friends that they got a raw deal.

This is fine, we appreciate that everyone takes away a different account of what happened, but please be aware that there is always more to the story.

Additionally, if one player was punished for something but another player wasn't - we ask you to please trust that we handle all reports of rule-breaking behaviour fairly according to our terms of service and code of conduct. It is possible that they have received punishment, perhaps not the same as you because there were a different set of circumstances surrounding the event, or for a variety of other reasons.

If you witness a user breaking the rules, then we strongly advise you to report that behaviour to us. We rely very heavily on reports of rule-breaking behaviour - we encourage members to report anonymously when they come across this on the site.

Why don't you discuss player punishments publicly?
Logs of player punishments actually fall under "personal data" as of the GDPR of May 2018 so we legally cannot disclose any information about player punishment with other members.

We have always had this rule in place, however, so that is not the full reason. We dislike bringing up player punishments due to the subjectivity of what has happened to cause the punishment. Moderators have to rule on varying degrees of the same rule.

For instance, what exactly constitutes scamming? How can we tell this was a definite scam? Where do we draw the line on what is a scam and what is just a promise transaction that never went through due to various reasons? What effect does this scam have on the victims, and the economy as a whole?

Additionally, we prioritise the maintenance of a user's privacy - nobody should be privy to what happens as the result of a ticket other than the moderating team and that user.

We heard you don't use off-site evidence but there have been some times you have used it?
We don't use off-site evidence as a general rule because it is very easy to fake screenshots, or impersonate someone when we don't have the back-end information that Lioden provides to us. If there is concrete evidence that this person has definitely done something offsite (e.g. is selling Lioden items/lions for real money) and we can verify it on Lioden then we will happily take off-site evidence into account.

Moderating - moving forward
We want to continue being a great team who works together to moderate Lioden. We hope that removing the moderator paws from moderators will allow them to play the game normally, as a real member. They have been forced into the spotlight since day one and we'd like to offer them the opportunity to sit back and enjoy the game as a member once more.

However, this doesn't mean there are no longer mods. We will be ensuring that we keep a team fully stocked and raring to go so that any reports and tickets created by members are handled promptly and fairly.

We would respectfully ask that you don't message formerly listed mods about whether they are still a moderator or not as we believe they are entitled to their privacy with this change.

If you encounter an unfair ruling or something that isn't handled how you think it should be, we still encourage you to report your ticket to the support email (support@lioden.com) or Abbey (#1).

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If you have any transparency questions, or questions about how we moderate and why we make some decisions, please ask and we will try to answer in admin responses over the following few days. Please keep in mind we will not answer questions about specific cases.



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Fading Angel (G2 2k)
[Frozen] (#81854)

Holy
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Posted on
2019-02-21 17:14:41
How are they able to act more freely when other mods and admins still know who they are?



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DrunkHedgedog (#86439)

Cursed
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Posted on
2019-02-21 17:21:00
Well, they do not control each other, I don't trust them, I had be here long enough to see many problems with the mods and even with admins, but talk about that already goes against the rules, now you don't even know who are the ones that may punish you, yeah, we are in the Right path ;)



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Legosi 🐺 Primal
5K stat (#119577)

Sapphic
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Posted on
2019-02-21 17:21:46
Nice, hopefully this will work out better for Mods. I fully support this.



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Łeo (#149077)

Lone Wanderer
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Posted on
2019-02-21 17:22:03
Thank you for letting us know :)



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🏳️‍🌈Glas
s🌹 Rose (#143609)

Angelic
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Posted on
2019-02-21 17:42:17
Ugh, I don't think I have a lot more energy to deal with this since I'm not even someone who's really had that much contact with the mods or admin and I'm thinking saying more will start to become off-topic.

Not knowing who handling your ticket means you have less information to understand why a certain decision was made. If you feel you have been treated unfairly, even just knowing who the mods are can allow you to see if you have had recent, or on-going negative interaction with one which can help make a case to an admin. Knowing who is doing what allows people to note behaviour patterns and possibly take them to task if need be.

Without this knowledge you just have to trust the admin to do this. Now, assuming the best case, the admin will try to be neutral, which means because they are not strictly in the interest of the user, they may not look as hard for evidence/theories to support them as the person themselves would. For judgment this is ideal, but this is why in courts you have teams with (supposedly) opposite interests, so that there is incentive for the best of both cases to be presented. Mods by nature of their roles have more info available to them then players, so not even letting a player know who is making the call is really hampering their ability to defend themselves if they feel they need to.

Also, the admin are not that different from the mods from a user point of view. They're both internet strangers who have power over your ability to use and enjoy the site, there's not really any reason to trust them more than any other rando unless there's a way to hold them accountable.



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Shake 🌹🌸🌼
(she/her) (#167772)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2019-02-21 17:47:20
Good lord. Everyone is out to get you lot, aren't they? I have faith in the staff and that they did not make this decision lightly. Bad apples ruin things for the vast majority all the time and griping about how personally you take it isn't going to do anything useful. From what I've read it seems like the harassment of mods was completely out of control and I do not blame the admins for taking steps to protect their volunteers. They want more people to volunteer, don't they? From what I have read it seems like they have a solution to people impersonating mods and for dealing with reports that involve a mod.



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1K+Sid{CLRoyalManedE
bonyMR} (#98208)

Total Chad
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Posted on
2019-02-21 18:25:56
I see we have a new update



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Cryptid's Side (#147189)

Lone Wanderer
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Posted on
2019-02-21 18:36:34
Sounds good! I'm sure a lot of mods are happy about this too! The only problem I can see is if you want to ask a mod for advice about a situation, but the situation isn't exactly modbox appropriate. I think that if you were a new player and had a situation like that, but didn't know any mods because you were new, that would suck.



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FROZEN UNTIL FEB
2025? (#109650)

Harbinger
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Posted on
2019-02-21 19:04:17
Hopefully you don't mind me asking, have players really been harassing moderators so badly? Really, I haven't seen anything about it before and am surprised to see that this has gone so far as to anonymize the mods. I'm not trying to play off the harassment, but I would love to see those players punished harshly. I absolutely enjoyed seeing moderators in chat and paying attention to them.

This is the first time I've played a game where moderators would be anonymous, and I don't much like it. Lioden is the best game I've played before, and I love the open interaction between everyone at all levels, from us newbs to Xylax.

If it raises any interest, another game I played had a list of banned accounts in their forum. It said the account number, how long they were banned, and why they were banned, in general terms i.e. multi-accounting, use of scripts, etc. That way players had an idea of what happened. I would be happy to provide the name of the game if you would like to see how they handle things. It only mentions bans, not warnings and stuff like that. I'm not sure if they were in the EU and fall under the GDPR, though.

Finally, another question: If interaction between moderators and players improve in the future, and both express an interest in republicizing moderators, would it ever happen? Or will this be set in stone from now on?

I am also happy to see the responses to so many people. Although I am sad about this change, it is good to see our feedback is being read.



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EntityofSilo | G4 (#107570)

Interstellar
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Posted on
2019-02-21 19:07:17
I finally finished reading all 15 pages of this... even reading that amount, which is probably an absolutely miniscule amount of what the mods and admins deal with, both exhausted me and made me feel absolutely horrible for the mods who catch this kind of flak from unhappy players. I wholeheartedly support this change and hope that it brings LD's hardworking mods some peace. We as players have no idea what the mods go through as part of their work; as such we can draw no conclusions about exactly how much of a problem this is for them. However, if it becomes an issue that the coders are taking time away from normal LD updates to address it and make several fairly large changes regarding it, it's safe to say this is a big deal and players shouldn't just push the mods' problems away because we want to be able to see who's a mod and who isn't.

This thread alone proves how much this is necessary. Yes, there are some valid concerns, but the amount of people complaining relentlessly about trust, anonymity, transparency, and accountability is astounding. I feel awful that admins are reading through page after page after page of insensitive whining when all they wanted was to keep their mods safe from the abuse they go through. Everyone on the Lioden team works so, so hard to keep Lioden a safe, wonderful space. I can't believe that this is the thanks they get for that work.

To all the moderators, coders, admins, artists, devs, etc. I am so sorry that you have to deal with this every day. I have never seen such a level of blatant disrespect on Lioden; that it's addressed to the people who provide so much to LD's playerbase is even worse. I hope this update brings all of you some peace and quiet. I can't speak for everyone here but I at the very least support your decisions regarding this 100%. Thank you so much for making Lioden the wonderful place it is now :)



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FrozenPhoenix (#113860)

Impeccable
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Posted on
2019-02-21 19:15:03
Thanks for letting us know!



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lostmeawhileago (#75936)

Usual
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Posted on
2019-02-21 19:16:32
I don't support this update



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Kripke ICE {Weekly
Raffles} (#49153)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2019-02-21 19:19:30
Will make chat easier on the eyes. And maybe a little less ass-kissing



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🐝 Detective (#19805)

Protector
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Posted on
2019-02-21 19:20:40
I read everything and I am glad things are being adjusted and clarified. The targeting of hard-working mods by unhappy players was always a painful thing to see.

I worry a bit about a lack of authority now that badges have been removed, but I understand the reasoning and look forward to see how things go!



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Teafox (#42483)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2019-02-21 19:23:07
Just wanted to add something for all those people commenting who seem to think that those of us who disagree are doing nothing but "insensitive whining"-

We are allowed our opinions just as you are allowed yours. This is an open forum and we are allowed to express our opinions and disappointment when we don't agree with updates.

Stop trying to shame people for speaking up just because you don't agree with what they are saying here. If the admins didn't want this to be an open forum for discussion, they would lock the thread.



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