ily but I'm sorry, I gotta no support here. The Lioden economy is already buckling under the pressure of things being too easy to obtain. Nothing holds value anymore, because it is easily recreated. Rosettes are worth next to nothing as it stands; I remember when a triple rosette was the ultimate achievement and cost you an arm, a leg, and your first-born child. These days, their value is suffering. Heck, I remember when double rosettes were a dream to own; now they're selling at a pure pittance of their original worth. Allowing more gnawrocks into the market only increases the likelihood of hard to achieve goals becoming less than hard to achieve, which means they are no longer as valuable - and with this increase comes the reduction in value for the items themselves. The item no longer has the value it had, because everyone is achieving the goals, everyone is hoarding for profit, therefore everyone is competing on market value, which drives the price down. That, in turn, drives down the price of the achieved lions once again - and it becomes a circle of falling prices and rarity.

More opportunity to obtain gnawrocks will result in more people grinding to hoard gnawrocks in an attempt to profit, or to breed out rare marking combinations. The more gnawrocks that are owned by players, the less they need to buy, the less that sell, the lower the price of the item. The more lions that are bred with rare combinations, the easier they are to obtain, the more people get, the less people pay. We've already seen this with buffalo scrotum this month, the prices still haven't recovered, and chances are they will never recover to the point they did last year because of the quantity people have hoarded. This will happen every year, until the price is pushed further and further down. This is already evidenced with items such as buffies and gnaws, when you compare the general sale price of these items to what they are now to what they were two years ago.

The Lioden economy is stagnant and buckling, the items are all over-used and over-hoarded. If there isn't a shift in the market, this is going to continue to get worse, so I personally cannot support introducing more gnawrocks and risking a rare value item becoming as common as other formerly valuable items are now.

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I agree with you on most of your points, CALA, but imo the problem is not Gnawrocks or Buffalo Scrotums -- it's items like Crunchy Worm, GMO Cow, and Lion Scrotum. Cloning Special Lionesses is absurd. This is what Gnawrocks used to be primarily used for -- and that was only ONE marking! Now people can just clone and directly king a Special Lioness clone. And GMO Cows and Lion Scrotums both have odds of success that are way too high.

On the other hand, the fact that SLs can be cloned does help prevent markings from going totally extinct the second they're released, so there is that. It's not all negative.

I wish Lioden would consider cycling items out of shops -- not permanently, just for even a single year. It would help stop the flooding of the market. I would suggest it, but I know it'd probably be auto-rejected by the community as a knee-jerk reaction lol.

Honestly, even if Lion Scrotums weren't cycled out but their odds were reduced to a 5% chance per cub, think of how much Dwarves would ALREADY go up in price from just that alone.

Imagine if GMO Cows were cycled out and your only options were Lion Meat and CRB. Even "super common" mutations would probably go back up in price a little bit.

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Honestly, I've had similar ideas on suggesting a daily breeding limit to prevent mass-breeding (people clone the base, king, then breed it to death); which I feel is a core problem of the Lioden market. Bases and markings cannot uphold their value because people just mass-breed the ends off them, which means they flood the market within two weeks of existing, and a small handful of people profit and then it crashes - but I haven't made the suggestion, because I can already feel the screaming and quaking over the idea, I don't think people would take to it at all even if it is something that could help recover at least one segment of the economy. I know the gnawrock is a very crucial breeding item, and I just feel like there is a very fine line where it could tip the scale over the edge and the economy could really be damaged; we have already seen a real jump in rosettes over the last year, a mega shift in prices and numbers, and I feel this is because people have understood that more rosette = more value, which resulted in more people hoarding gnawrocks from August last year so they could reach those goals. Crunchy Worms really are a market-killer, I can 100% agree there; so I just don't want gnawrocks to go down the same path, if that makes sense :'3

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"Honestly, I've had similar ideas on suggesting a daily breeding limit to prevent mass-breeding (people clone the base, king, then breed it to death); which I feel is a core problem of the Lioden market."

Oh, it absolutely is, and I've also thought that they should implement a limit on how many times a king can (successfully, obviously) breed per day. Reverse breeding should not even be allowed. There's a studding limit for a reason. WHY are they letting people abuse the system? "Oh well we're not moderating it so whatever". Nah. 99% of players aren't going to scam someone with reverse breeding. All it does is allow people to bypass an INTENTIONAL LIMIT.

I don't agree with the base flooding thing though. Bases are decidedly not overflooding the market, and that is actually ALSO a problem. Some bases like Pearl and Sepia are, STILL, almost nonexistent because no one can breed them. Kiman and Mandarin? LOL. If anything should be made easier to pass, it's bases.

Again, I keep saying this. The items and applicators should be extremely rare. Breeding should be made more "steady" and easier, but much slower. Items and applicators are immediate/faster reward, breeding takes a lot of time to get what you want (usually, unless you're hyper lucky).

Lioden has a problem where things either HYPER FLOOD the market, or are nonexistent because they're WAY too difficult and not worth it to try to get.

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How about a compromise?

Gnaws are added to another month [in this case, April] costing more relative currency compared to the 'reasonable amount you gather daily', but their default price in their primary month is also increased? [EDIT: Gnaws in September cost 150JB, which if I recall is roughly 3 days of exploring on one account? Let's say the April release would be 500EE, roughly 4-6 days of gathering. Assume we bump that- September Gnaws at 200JB and April Gnaws at 600JB, or something of the sort] So there are more opportunities to get Gnaws, but perhaps not too much of an increase compared to how many you'd get in a normal year per user?


At this rate, there isn't much that can be done to save some markets without huge, drastic change that will piss a lot of people off at first- I've been working on a suggestion with a friend for a while that we put on hold due to IRL getting in the way, and I think the 'limited availability' might have come up at some point! Plus making Crunchies far harder to get than earning enough BB for one every two days per account...
But the problem is that a lot of the sort of groundwork is in place to allow some of these things to happen. Triple Rosettes used to be rare because there weren't many pons with Mott+another Rosette floating around, or if there where they were concentrated on a few accounts. As of right now, I have uh... I think 5-ish Pons that can reliably make triples. You can't quite reign that market in without nuking those Pons and ones like them- you can't wait for them to die, because users are savy and are freezing their 800GB lions on their sides [which I'm doing too].

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Maybe I might produce the suggestion one day, even at the risk of being barbecued alive for it xD! But yeah; something needs to shift in the economy. I personally feel like those bases are simply non-existent due to a lack of popularity; people aren't as attracted to them, for a variety of reasons; sometimes fail-bases, sometimes they just aren't as aesthetically pleasing. I'm more speaking in terms of the new 'rare' bases; the July event for a start; Leonid had some serious potential at being a good, lasting base that could hold it's value for a time, but it was all over in the space of two weeks.

In the case of gnawrocks, I understand the utility of the item; they helped me achieve my Mottled Rosette Full-Vitiligo dream; but I feel if I had them available to me more often, then that would have been something I could have achieved even quicker. I think if Crunchy Worm was to be heavily adjusted/wasn't as readily available, then this would be a fantastic idea - but with Crunchy Worm being so available, it could be damaging having the extra gnaws come Crunchy time.

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I'm torn on this one, but I think ultimately I agree with CALA that although gnawrocks aren't necessarily the biggest problem currently, they could easily become so. Crunchy worms are definitely more destructive to the market and to rarity at the moment, but every time gnawrocks drop in price it's still incredibly noticeable the knock-on effect they have too.

For instance, by fluke the timing of a project I was doing ended up with me having a bunch of by-product double rosettes I didn't need and decided to sell last summer. This was late-ish summer, just before September. Those double rosettes - which were pretty nice, but still, just doubles - all sold really easily for 60-70+GB EACH! Because it was summer, and gnawrocks were hard to come by. Then after gnawrocks hitting the shop in September I was seeing cubs almost exactly the same as those I'd sold, but they were now selling for about 7-8GB each. Basically a 90% reduction, which was solely down to the market flooding with gnaws.

For most people yolks are a bit of a waste unless you're a serious stat breeder. So April would inevitably become highly focused on gnaws, and the market would take another huge hit at this time of the year too...I do get that it's hard to have important items available only once a year, but economically I think it's pretty disastrous to keep making things more and more easily and cheaply available. I'd be more in support of some kind of smaller gnaw release; not in an event shop, but limited in terms of how many each player would be able to acquire. Maybe a quest prize, or something along those lines, off the top of my head?? That would enable newbies who joined after September to earn their way to 1 or 2, without the huge impact of an unlimited event release.

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"Leonid had some serious potential at being a good, lasting base that could hold it's value for a time, but it was all over in the space of two weeks."

It's funny that you bring up Leonid, because this actually ties into my point. Almost every single Leonid I see looks the same, or are just covered in applicator marks (so they all look the same regardless). Because no one can or wants to breed a Leonid with a different marking set, because they're too difficult to breed. Am I blaming them? Absolutely not.

Yes, popularity is a factor, but how often do you hear about or see Sidereals anymore? Sidereal isn't an unpopular base. Leonid isn't an unpopular base either, but no one wants to do interesting breeding projects for them because they're a pain in the ass to breed for.

There used to be lots of Lilacs in 2014-2015 with 3-4x Siamese and Panther. Rare bases like that with that many breed-only markings is unheard of now, unless it's a Special Lioness clone.

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To be fair to Leonid I did finally manage a few weeks ago to breed a perfect one with NHR which I've been attempting for months. No way I have the patience to try and breed in any more complicated stuff though; I'm enjoying creating an army of (private) clones, but that's as far as I'm taking it!

If I wasn't trying to ration gnawrocks as much I definitely could have achieved a double rosette Leonid instead, so based on my own breeding patterns I do think that supports CALA's point still tbh. Even the rarest and most impossible-seeming things to breed aren't really that rare or impossible anymore

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It's something to expect with all bases and markings, inevitably their value and popularity will decline. Every new breed-only base has some form of value, as does every new marking. Once the market is accustomed to these bases and markings, they are no longer as valuable, thus no longer as popular. People who like them for their aesthetics will be the ones to keep breeding and buying them, which will determine the marketable value based on that specific niche. My point is, mass-breeding speeds up the process, meaning the period of profit prior to the decline is far shorter. Something that once took two - three months to settle into a lower market price is now happening in the space of two weeks, thanks to crunchy worms and mass-breeding (in terms of bases; clone and king); or by gnawrocking and mass-breeding (in terms of markings; gnaw and king).. Which is why my concern for more gnawrocks being available is a concern, because any new marking will inevitably be cloned in one way or another, thus beginning the cycle I mentioned in the beginning.

To add to that; July is coming. I can absolutely see people hoarding what gnawrocks they can from April, and using them to flood the market with any new July markings we might possibly get; which will mean not only are the July bases going to be crashed, but the markings too.

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" which will mean not only are the July bases going to be crashed, but the markings too."

Oh don't worry they'll probably be apps so it won't matter anyway :^)

Japes aside, I don't necessarily disagree with your points at all and I think you've made some very good ones, but I do not agree that breed-only bases are overbred at all. Actually, though, I will say that part of that is probably due to the fact that applicator bases and breed-only bases share the exact same category. What's the point of breeding for Celestial when you can just slap Ice on for the exact same effect? It's going to be covered in marks anyway. Again, people don't want to bother breeding for something when they can get something in the same rarity category right away.

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LOL thoughts & prayers for July applicators
It isn't really always about the appearance of a new base in the beginning though; it's about achieving it and obtaining it, because it is new. People always try to breed for the new base, because new = rare, because it doesn't already exist anywhere, which is why there is profit. Eventually, people no longer want to put in the effort involved unless they have their own goals or aesthetic reasons because they could just buy a lion with the base, or because they exist and are no longer exciting or new - or slap on an applicator, like you say, which is why the value decreases over time. All new bases have a healthy market value, which gradually declines as the population increases. Mass-breeding results in a sharp increase, which results in a faster value reduction. The exact same applies to new markings.

Basically, I can maybe support this idea if crunchies are overhauled, but if crunchies are still so easily obtainable, I cannot.

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BRB going to make a 'triple the cost of Crunchies, they're cheap as hell when a lot of us got 8k BB last year' suggestion

Might do so tomorrow- sorry I wasn't an active participant in the discussion, have been busy!

I agree that it's a tedious balance between ruining the market more, and 'what's the point of breeding a double anyways when it costs a 55GB Gnaw to do it, plus a Buff, and each cub gets you 5-15GB'. IMO Gnaws should have been implemented to give a 75% chance at passing the mark [as if breeding the same slot and same mark together for non-Rosettes], but we can't remove them or edit them now that they're in game, just... find a way to make that balance a little more feasible.

As of right now only very few users (relative to the total active users) even have access to Gnaws- if you joined the first of October 2019 you've likely never owned one that wasn't 30+GB a pop. For me and my small Pon armada it's no problem, but it sucks seeing that newer users, or any who want to start a Rosette project, will need to wait another five months before being able to work on it. I have other things to keep me occupied until I can fistfight RNG for my dream Alchemist, but other users might be left without much to do if they have their heart set on a Rosette project.

Two-three Gnaws per account could be a very solid compromise- I expect prices wouldn't drop too low. Maybe mini-quests like Myriad suggested! Interstellar ultra lite diet no fat

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