I think the emphasis here is still on "pretend" - surely lions named after certain gods would be fully aware of the stories surrounding them AND be using those stories/terms to advance their own agenda. I think you would agree with me that many humans had done that in various religions - that's quite common for self-proclaimed gods to appear, then be busted as scams when their cover is blown. And in the storyline, that's pretty much what happens when you break the ritual for Apedemak - he realises he's just a madman who almost killed another lion over nothing. And there are NPCs who call Apedemak "self-proclaimed" god, which also proves he could just be a scammer lion shaman who practices some old magic and is aware of some stories and uses them to advance his ambitions (and raises his daughter to believe in those stories), but isnt actually a god.

Claiming you come from celestial kingdom doesnt mean it is actually true, maybe they live on some high plateu area and call it the "celestial kingdom" because Apedemak is teaching them that; think how sects brainwash members trapped in them. Could be why Apedemak is shown as mostly a villain character.

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either way they're all heavily based, and a lot of the events are heavily bases off of religions, e.g june, ocotober, and ofc july. they cant all just be mentally ill[? is it that?] as to pretend they are these deities of culture/relifion

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pardon all my mis-spellings, im shit at typing

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But neither are all those depictions offensive. A cultural consultant will know best but I dont believe they will find most of the depicted cultural figures to be offensive to any religion or culture - just like the cultural consultant on Wolvden have not found most of the user reported "offenses" to be offensive at all. Just 1 image out of several reports was deemed to be actually overstepping the line!

That's why I support the idea; a cultural consultant can clear all the questions regarding if something is offensive or not. We may debate over this but only a professional can determine if its in fact offensive to a culture - and to be an expert, you need to BE from that culture, not just study it. Wolvden did hire a culture's local to be their expert. Its not enough to just study a culture, you need to be a part of it to truly tell if it is offensive or not - preferably, like Wolvden, to hire a consultant who is not playing the game, for the unbiased point of view. The depiction may differ from a "classic" view of that figure in a culture, and not match your own personal views on it, but still not be offensive to that culture.

And if its not offensive to a culture it is from, then its an artistic interpretation and shouldnt be changed, even if some users personally dislike that view. So long as it does not offend the original culture or someone else, its perfectly fine for artists to interpret things their creative way - things dont have to be 100% lore accurate all the time, as long as they're not offensive, artists like Xylax should have their right to interpret the idea as they personally see it. Its unfair to limit artists to just "lore" versions, other people can have different visions, and so long as that vision is not offensive, it has its right to exist.

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I mean,, i never said it was offensive. I was just pointing out that not every single religious-inspired character event is spawning from some mentally ill fabrication in a character's mind.

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No, but I was currently talking about this instance in particular. Apedemak was shown as a "self-proclaimed god" from the beginning, it is part of his lore and the lore of the July celestial lions to doubt if they're actually gods. There are several hints at a doubt about their true nature throughout July.

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Being a celestial and specifically being named after dieties AND having these powers that they have seems to heavily imply they're very powerful if not gods outright. Apedemak can gather and consume whispers ("souls"), which falls in line with his nature as a war god, given that war was sometimes depicted as a harvesting of many souls, and the real Apademak was depicted holding the chains of captured enemies (easily represented here by the capture of whispers). Apollyon can summon fiery destruction from the sky. They're far from lions that're LARPing or just imagining they've got godly powers.

Real Apademak was also a god of fertility, which can easily explain the plotline here revolving around the 'perfect heir'. I don't think this is a coincidence, nor that Apademak isn't actually a god. It's very heavy-handed. But I think that 'gods' in LD lore are vast and varied, and it's why we see everything from the Heaven & Hell, to the Egyptian Pantheon, to this.

Bast takes the form of a lion in LD lore. She wasn't a lion. That's Sekhmet, who was also a god of war. Yet we see Set and Anubis in their proper forms. Set was hella obscure (a sha) and he's made basically 1:1 with the depictions.


And to debunk the idea they aren't actually from the celestial kingdom, a December encounter shows the very same lionesses from their kingdom actually coming from the "Celestial Kingdom of Leo". Regardless of whether or not the December events themselves are non-canon, the information we're given about each of the other named characters in December still tracks with their lore.


What's more, the July entity we're shown called the "demiurge" was indeed a real thing. Depicted as a lion-headed serpent from Gnosticism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge

This leads me to believe that all of the celestial kingdom critters are some degree of divinity or god.

Rest assured, my problem isn't specifically with the artistic liberties taken with the characters who are depictions of deities, spirits and so forth. I think it's a very good way to introduce players to all of these relatively obscure figures and lead people to exploring and learning. I just have issue with Apollyon being written as the hero savior, and not Menhit. It unfortunately feels like it both over-writes her position and victories both as a native and as a woman.

I think if I could pick anything, I'd want a second part to come of this, where Menhit discovers Apollyon's attempts to use her. With her father out of the way, Apollyon can take over her kingdom, which spurs Menhit to discovering her true powers. It'd bring the story of her being like her war goddess counterpart full circle, and you could help Menhit and her armies slay Apollyon and his own, making her the central figure of her story again and affirming that she will not be unseated by a foreign invader.

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Its weird to hear Menhit's achievements are being belittled because in her questline, she in fact takes the lead role.



This is NOT a face of a woman who is expecting a warrior hero to save her, she does everything herself, and says she will rule the Celestial Kingdom with her future husband - SHE will rule it, not Apollyon, and the image shows Apollyon quite content with it.



Just because in the original story Apollyon is a - what was it, a conqueror? Im not aquinted with these particular cultural figures - it does not mean depicting as NOT one is offensive. The story underlines multiple times that Apollyon truly loves Menhit, not just attempting to use her. And right now, February event shows them happy and romantic and loving eachother, nobody is nobody's hero savior.



Well, again, neither of us are cultural consultants so we can only debate if this depiction of them is offensive to the original culture. We can only speculate based on our own opinions, you have voiced yours, but I am not convinced its offensive enough to re-write those characters. And its important to understand, cultural consultant is NOT there to change the original characters to their canonic images, they are only called upon to make sure their depiction is not offending someone. Being a "unfitting image" for your personal opinion and being insulting towards a culture are different things. During the feather discussion on Wolvden Ive read many posts claiming its totally offensive but the actually qualified local consultant have cleared that depicting a feather behind an ear is NOT offensive, unless a specific feather.

If the depictions of Apedemak/Apollyon/Menhit are deemed offensive, the only course of action admins can take really is rename them. They are already established characters and they wouldnt be re-written for this, triggering a huge work of changing art and text in the storyline. Its easier to just change their names and make them Lioden's own characters instead. And I doubt a new storyline part would be considered, given the complexity of making one - we still havent gotten any hint of Mukombero adventure, no extra gods during June... renaming them is really the only option, ONLY if the depiction of them is found offensive.

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This is a great thread, I hope that one does get hired. Don't know why there are 10 no supports but people on here are weird!

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This is a greatly needed change for the site, and i think it would definitely help turn things in the right direction.

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Huuuge support. I study cultural anthropology (and development sociology), and I've had multiple months worth of lectures on sensitive topics ... and a lot of these topics are things that seem to be fully normalized on here

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Full support. Imo the fact that we have 20 no supports and no explanation from any of them is....

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I agree on having a cultural consultant but i'm confused about some of the things that have been spoken about, aren't there plenty of stories where mythological gods are taken from somewhere and readapted to fit a narrative? Are they all seen as offensive to said culture? Or seen as fun adaptations? A mixture? Inspiration but fantasy is allowed to interpret it differently?

I feel like you have to be from that certain culture to be able to be like "no that's offensive" cause no matter how much you learn, living it is different.

I also feel like it should be a group of people deciding rather than 1 person, 1 persons opinion does differ from others, even in the same cultures, maybe a committee I guess?

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It's one thing to take inspiration but another to just slap a culture or religion's gods and notable figures on something and call it original content because they changed a few things. I feel like some players will hold LD to a higher standard where African cultures are concerned because of how common it is for the west to take from those nations and cultures and just do what they see fit with it, with no regard to the original intent. But with it also borrowing from other cultures around the world as things go on, I think it's important for LD's team to consider how international players may feel seeing their culture used as an aesthetic.

Not everyone will care. And that's alright. But I feel like it's part of the package when LD is trying to be inclusive and considerate.

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Again the question here is "if its ok or not".

The one cultural consultant hired on Wolvden have dismissed 9 of 10 concerns as made up white knighting and NOT being offensive/an issue in fact. So I would like to repeat; remember, chances are, the cultural consultant is NOT going to be an agent of censorship. MOST likely, the depictions are NOT offensive, and taking inspirations/names from a culture is NOT inconsiderate - which the cultural consultant will confirm and approve as fine to use. Like it happened in 9 of 10 cases on Wolvden.

There is still creative freedom. There is still - and always MUST be - freedom of speech and interpretation. You cannot expect "cultural consultants" to act as agents of censorship, beating anyone thinking out of the box back into "canon image or be a criminal" box. Its not disrespectful to take inspiration from something in a culture - culture is where EVERYTHING originates from, every idea, every image takes root from some culture or another. And if Im being honest, taking inspiration from cultures not widely presented in mass media before is a gulp of fresh air, giving new ideas for people to see AND allowing the underappreciated cultures to get more spotlight, to raise awareness of them. Its only disrespectful when its done in an offensive way. Cultural consultants are called upon to make sure the way it is represented on Lioden, is not accidentally offensive. NOT to be censorship agents whose aim is to strike down the criminals thinking outside the box.

One more reason why there should be a Cultural Consultant on Lioden. SO that the consultant can clear those questions and prove its fine to use so "white knights" defending a culture can finally calm down and stop advocating uncalled-for censorship. There is a fine line between being considerate to a culture, and censoring out everyone mentioning things from that culture. Being considerate is good; being censoring is BAD.

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