Addressing concerns:

You have liked this post!

[reserved space]

You have liked this post!

I understand what you are aiming for and support whole heartedly.
I can't quite understand why anyone has pressed no support in all honesty. It's a shame they're not saying why, at least during the moment I am typing this there's currently no comment on why they don't support it.

Perhaps people should like to verbalise why they think this is a bad idea??

You have liked this post!

@LollyBugz Thank you!
I can understand why this can be a very controversial topic but I do hope people who choose no support will explain why even if it's something as simple as they like the way it is now. Honestly I would love to see both sides respond with more insight!

You have liked this post!

I like this idea a lot! I would also like to add that so many of the people in this community and on this site are absolutely wonderful kind people when interacting with new players!! We help each-other out to achieve our goals and there are multiple clans and communities that a player can join to achieve those goals faster. I hope that my experience with the community can help people be less scared of the idea of a better economy! Yes the mutations will be a little harder to come by at cheap cheap prices, but there will still be clans and players willing to help you out if you’re in a bind. I don’t think it would change much in being able to get a mutie. I completely understand people’s reservations, but, I really love the community on lioden and I really believe that we can come together to Foster a good environment for new and vet players alike to come and find a fair price for their lions!
I have also seen lots of people in chat asking about how they can get sb! Having an option with the same mechanics as the portal but themed to the enclave with less intense rewards would be a wonderful way to grind out some sb/ energy for those of us that spend all day in explore!

You have liked this post!

"As of the time of drafting this forum, a player can obtain just about any mutation (patches, pies, overgrown, amp mane, primal variants, etc) for less than 5gb, and often closer to just 1-2gb or less. I, alongside many others, view this as a problem."

Sorry, but this is a good thing. Accessibility to better lions for less money means that more people can have a chance at getting a really neat king. It'll also encourage new players to stay longer. Personal example: if I hadn't been able to get my king for under 1G I would still have my starting king and it's very likely that I would have already gotten bored and left the site.

From a new players perspective (I've been here about a month), this movement feels like sour grapes more than an actual attempt to fix the economy. I went through a similar situation on another pet site where the devs released previously retired items that had been artificially inflated by some players and watched some very similar sentiment grow where they were upset that their items weren't status symbols anymore. I'm willing to admit that I'm wrong, but this feels very similar to that.

One point I do agree with is a year round portal. I think that would fix a lot of problems with be tree and the chased pool and might even fix some of the problems that youve outlined here that I don't agree with.

Anyways I've only been awake for like a half hour so forgive me if I've been a little rambly or if my points don't make sense. Feel free to DM me if you have any specific questions about my rebuttal and have a great day~

You have liked this post!

Please don't take this the wrong way, it's going to sound like I'm invalidating your play style but I'm not, but getting a good king isn't supposed to be easy. Things like good kings, mutant lions & hybrids are supposed to be late/r game rewards you're not supposed to dip the second you can't buy them as a newbie, if it's that easy to lose interest perhaps it isn't the game for those people.

I've been here for 8 years, and I cannot stress enough that I'm not a rich player I cannot just dip into PayPal and buy GB whenever I feel like it so this is not about money or status symbols for me at least.

And, of course when I joined 8 years ago things were different to how they are now, times change, but back then it felt like things were worth something, things just don't sell well now and the saturation is extreme. I had an easier time selling absolutely anything circa 2016-2018 then it began to get worse and worse and worse and here we are.
I kept my starter kings on both accounts for the duration of their lives, of course I wanted a better king who the hell doesn't, but I had to work for it. I still do work for it now, and it feels good to achieve goals. Just buying it at 1gb feels so empty. Because these things are cheap they have now become even more accessible and it'll just get worse and as the saturation increases and their value diminishes.

I do not think it's right to make it hard for newer players I don't mean that I think it should be. I agree fully with what Aiden above said. It's a kind community of that I have no doubt and people will always help out newer players very gladly!

The players calling for changes are only doing so because we saw it before the hot mess it's become, and can see the problem here. There is nothing sour, no ill intent here no hate. Maybe we're just nostalgic old fools for feeling this way, we just want to see something we care about get better again, at least that's how I feel about it.

You have liked this post!

You're fine! Civil discourse is how we solve problems!

I see where you're coming from. I also see that you might have misunderstood my play style. I'm also not rich. I've paid money to this site a grand total of once and I'll likely never do so again. And this was after buying my new king. Indrid (my king) would not be considered a "good king" by most people's standards and he was a bit of a potato baby when I got him, which is why he was at a discount. I traded my June storyline reward for his new base and some GB and that was how I got started.

And there are still things I can't afford. I can't afford most muts, any hybrids, breeding items, RLCs, a lot of custom and regular decor, and most special bases. You breed mudstone? I can't afford that. I got lucky with my king, but I also spent hours combing the TP looking at fodder cubs to see if any of them were special and grinding in explore/hunting/games to get things I could sell.

It's not a for sure thing that I'd have left the site already if I hadn't found Indrid. I might have discovered RMAs and made my OG king a project. I might still be obsessively browsing the TP for food lions. (That one might *still* be true lol)

My point is, if someone bought a clone of my king today for like idk 200SB when I paid more than that, it doesn't effect me at all. Good for them! I'm glad they got a deal! I specifically sell his potato cubs for not a lot so maybe someone can have that chance that I did. People will still have to grind even if things are cheaper and they can get a sense of accomplishment even if they can buy something.

Maybe if I was here in 2016 I'd have a different opinion. And Aiden and you are right, the players here are super friendly and helpful! Someone gifted me gold like my second day here!

All right, the IRL lion is begging to get out so I gotta run! Even if we don't see eye to eye on this, I really wanna stay there are no hard feelings at all and what youve built over the years with your pride is super impressive! Have a good Sunday

You have liked this post!

When it comes to the market I think a crucial misunderstanding that a lot of players have is that things being expensive is strictly their enemy gatekeeping them from what they want. When I think in actuality, high prices and value are a huge reason that lions like hybrids are desirable. High prices aren't your enemy, they're your friend, and having everything be low value hurts everyone. Lioden is a game that puts a high emphasis on patience and effort. Things progress fairly slowly each rollover, long waiting periods are enforced (event shop bars, heat cycles, waiting for lionesses to give birth, waiting to retire your king, etc...)... so I think it stands to reason that having to work for what you want serves the game and how it functions. You aren't meant to obtain everything straight out the gate, it's not built that way. Lioden is a game where you steadily work towards your own goals you've formed, whether that's a breeding project, waiting each month to buy cool items, CRB projects, etc. At least that's how I see it.

When it comes to the argument that making things higher value hurts newbies I fundamentally disagree with it. I think having goals to strive for longterm is part of the core of Lioden, so newbies should be faced with things they can't obtain so they can have goals in the first place. It draws in people who are the target audience of the game! And things need to be inaccessible without effort to be valuable in that way, otherwise there isn't any point.
Anyways, if lions and items become higher value, players are going to gift newbies anyways. People gifted me things as a new player back when I joined when the economy was marginally better. Giving things back their value doesn't mean newbies can never obtain cool items. And I think this player-driven-kindness is a lot better than having all values be low- it makes it feel more personal, more exciting when it happens!

In general I think the game as it should be functioning is really fair. I also don't understand the sentiment of "the Lioden rich", at all. All you need to do to get money in this game is to play it at your own pace, buy event items that are good for reselling (there's plenty of resources on what items are good to resell), and have patience to wait until their value gets higher. Honestly the richest players I know don't even spend real money on the game at all. I don't get it... "the Lioden rich" is like a convenient fantasy explanation to me that avoids all action you can take to get rich yourself. Again, things come back to patience and time. I think it's the core of the game!

Anyways, regarding the actual suggestion I like the idea of a yearround July portal alternative. We really need a good lion dump. I think it'd be neat if it was fused into the Gorilla Enclave in a way. Leave the special quests but make them more open and have these special quests ask for valuable lions like muties, special bases, etc. And let you submit more common lions for a minimal reward that adds up like the portal but toned down a little so July can still be a little special for it.
(...Basically, The Collector clan but on a larger sitewide scale.)
I also believe Black Friday's prize pool is a huge culprit in ruining the economy and value of Piebald and Patches, so I would be really happy to see it reworked again. It's nice to get more MoDs but also when the big appeal of having a MoD when I started playing was the rarity & potential to sell G2s for good money, it... really sucks that that isn't possible anymore. It's really just a visual thing now and that's such a bummer, even if I do really like having heritageless kings.

Thank you for the suggestion/discussion post OP! Sorry for my huge wall of text of mainly rebuttals of common arguments I see I just really wanted to put my thoughts out there concisely and I figure people might see it and hopefully change their minds.

You have liked this post!

@Faint
thanks for that perspective! I do understand the concern about accessibility (to an extent) for new players but I do agree with @LollyBugz and @Auris, it isn't supposed to be "easy" for new players right away. I want to do a deeper dive into what I mean by that at some point but the way I've observed the market change just in the 2 years I've been here, many traits are losing value drastically which means there's less of an opportunity for progression in general for ALL players. The fact is that lowering value does hurt everyone. I do agree with Aiden as well, the community is very generous with helping new players get on their feet, and there's a lot of players and clans who dedicate a lot of their time to helping others progress too, so I don't believe this should be too big of a concern.

With small change/s the market wouldn't shoot up a ridiculous amount right away, it would most likely be small change over time, but I believe a reward system for turning in lions could also benefit new players while simultaneously improving the market. I want to reiterate, I do NOT think a drastic overnight style change would be healthy. I believe came on fairly strong with this topic, and I think most people reading this suggestion assume I'm rooting for a fast change, where I'm more looking for a new feature that can allow us to gradually shift into a more secure market over time.

@Auris, I really like this standpoint and agree with it strongly. I'm a huge fan of The Collector, I believe it's largely misinterpreted by players who tend to think it's more of a "Hey! We want YOUR lions dead!" versus a movement that is trying to bring value back to lion traits, which benefits virtually everyone in the community by then increasing the value of their lions too.

Of course what I do want to highlight about the idea of something permanent like July's portal, is that it would be entirely optional, but would offer a small solution that gives players an alternative to make a difference.

You have liked this post!

I do agree with us having a horid economy, but it's more us then the mods who've done it. However I do agree with @Faith all the way, I don't think piebalds, patches or any other common mutation should be over 1 GB, obviously if it's special that's different. When I first joined a year and six days ago piebalds and primals were 500-900 sb MAX, when I came back four months ago i was surprised to see them at a minimum of 1 GB, however now that I'm more 'experienced' 1 GB Isn't a lot to me, but I'm not rich by any means but I make 2000+ SB daily so spending a little more Isn't a big deal to me!

And I totally agree with the year round portal, however I'm not sure how it'll he'p with fodders etc because I believe they are spawned. But I could be wrong I definitely haven't read up on it and one problem I've noticed is theres literary NO cubs at the tree.

Anyway hope you enjoyed my mom brain rant. Thank you for addressing these topics <3

You have liked this post!

@texts.from.your.ex

If you're referring to the giving tree lions being spawned, they're cubs abandoned by players! The only reason there's a drastic decrease this month is because they're being fed to the Celestial Portal in this month's event. That's why if there was a permanent addition to the game similar to the portal, I would like to see a smaller density/different variety of rewards so the tree doesn't look like this all year!

And I appreciate your reply! It's good to see people sharing their opinions from both sides of the matter, that was my overall intention, to start a discussion :)

You have liked this post!

I have a few opinions on this, mostly negative so I won't share all of them, however:
Karma does play a role outside titles and events! From what I've noticed, you get very different explore encounters!
For example, White Lion, and dying lion encounters are restricted to negative karma kings! I've only ever done evil kings, so I can't say much for the other extreme, but I also believe Lion skull encounters are more common.

You have liked this post!

@Lizzie! 🌿
Please feel free to add any negative comments! It helps me develop the suggestion :)

And yes! I had a limit on characters I was able to put in the original post, but I believe I did include karma specific encounters are part of the incentive, I just didn't list specific examples

You have liked this post!

Okay, all my thoughts on this! Overall it's a no support from me, though I respect your opinions!

Topic 1: Overabundance
Personally, I agree that there's an overabundance on certain mutations. However, it's honestly not a problem of the pass rate, it's the rate at which players breed them. Plenty of people do breeding projects for RLCs, hybrids, heirs, other muts, etc etc you know the rest, we all do. People who do this with pie kings can't control the fact that the mutation may pass. Lowering the pass rate won't necessarily increase price, as people with pie/patch kings will continue to mass breed regardless. There's also the fact that with the increase of population, they're a less desirable mut. Simple law of supply and demand caused the immense price drop, not the 5% pass rate. I know people who have mass bred with a pie king and only had it pass once or twice in a few months of having the king. It isn't a problem with pass rate, it's the players' own fault it's declined so much.
Mutations also aren't supposed to be "end game" material. Lioden never ends. Mutations are just that, mutations. They're a random statistic that has the possibility of happening. The way the community prices it is just how the community prices it. Someone can put a foldie up for 6k gb if they really wanted to, but it would never sell. The prices go by what people are willing to pay.

Topic 2: Karma
I said part of my opinion above, but I just don't think karma should matter. It's a minimal thing that's purely for show, and you can only ever SEE your karma by paying SB. The titles are to give it some sort of a use outside explore. It's also just too easy to tip the scale. You didn't provide ideas for a use for karma, so I'll just make one up: let's say if you have negative karma, you gain energy for killing lions, neutral you have a net 0 for energy, positive gains by nature reserving, and the 2 sides of the scale lose energy by doing the other side's action. If I choose one wrong choice in explore, get sents above the threshold of positive karma, and haven't paid to check my karma, then go to kill a lion, ive now lost energy because I wasn't careful enough with karma. It would just cause unnecessary worry.

Topic 3: Enclave
You receive a reward each time you sacrifice a cub to the Enclave. If you were allowed more than one a day, the items sold for monkey teeth would become worthless. It would effectively cause ANOTHER supply and demand issue similar to the mutation situation. There are some decently high values items in the Enclave shop! Yoh bark prices would go down immensely, which would speed up the population growth of ANY high value Lion, potentially nuking the prices of everything.

These are just my opinions and where my mind immediately went when reading this!

You have liked this post!