increasing the amount of JB or encounter chances wont do ANYTHING to crash the market or devalue items. september has items in it that you can only get once a year and it is horrendous that you can barely make enough while grinding optimally to purchase 1 item.
feburary has a lower item price, more abundant encounters, and most of the items are available twice a year. the items are still high value all year round even after the absurd amount of griding that happens in feburary. why would it affect septembers items at all?

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Updated to include the lack of encounters as a whole!

mewflakes (#88492) I completely agree, the market wouldn't be affected much or at all.

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big support- i think that gnawrocks are valuable enough that it won't matter if more players are able to buy more of them. people will still buy them year round regardless, and realistically the price will only drop a couple geebs!

i've got less than 200 JB three days into the event of playing every hour, and thats WITH some rollover from last year. if the encounters were increased from 0-5 per energy bar to 5-10 per bar, i'd be happy enough and it's not a big enough difference to tank item values! just my two cents ^^

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Leaving my lil piece. (I Apologize in advance cuz English is not my first language. If there's something bad writen or it's not undertable, let me know pliz!)

Comparing Feb items with Sept items:

Feb items are between tier 2 and tier 3 of the market which is (in my opinion) the longest shop to fully unlock, which gives the player half of the month to grinf the currency and make more than 2k of Heart shells, and that's easy enough for even non grinder players.

All of that plus the low price of the event currency of the items gets the item to get lower in their moths to others player to buy.

Plus the fact some of those items are in other months event should crumble the price of the breeding items but buffyes goes betweek 20-25gb off event, never misses.

Sept items are between tier 2 and 3 of the event shop which gets open more faster than feb shop, contrary than in feb, players don't get that much time to get ahold of event currency (roughly you can make 1k if you grind a looooot- lot of lots + energy items)

The items are the double of expensive than feb items. In month they go around 10-20gb (when buffies goes 8-12gb max) and they're the double of expensive in the event market than feb.

Plus, this items only get 1 month to get (it's actually similar to crunchies) and very valuable in non month-event.

I'd say that September market wouldn't get a down-grade in the explore encounters gets more frecuent or the amount ot JB gained gets sightly raised, it wouldn't get a up-grade either cuz the prices are still high to avoid just that.

Comparing the traffic of gawns and buffies in the market, buffies are still way above in amount levels than gawns and buffies' prices only get down in month-event when you can get it.

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Quite literally just used an entire bar on my side & got one jb...

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pwetty pwease lioden

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Just a thing to keep in mind regarding "GMOs/Gnaws will always be there". The problem isn't them going away. It's over-saturation that's killing every Lioden market. Making things easier to get will exasperate this issue. I'm fine with making backgrounds and decors easier to obtain, but events which contain these high value items need to be preserved, IMO.

In the last 2 years, LD's population has more than doubled, and we've watched a collapse of nearly every market - including those we all thought would be untouchable. I remember only 4 years ago, selling Lion and Buffalo scrotes for 30+ GB was easy. Now, they're barely reaching 20. Across all my total earnings from February, I've lost about 100 GB worth of income because of Buff price drops alone. My Crunchies have consistantly sold for 20 gb less, same with my GMOs and Ochres. The market is suffering.

It's all a combination of too many people selling too many items, not enough buyers and wide-spread, irresponsible under-pricing. Ochres and GMOs are some of the last remaining stable priced items. Changes to this event will threaten that.

I'm seeing a number of these suggestions, but please consider those of us who sell these as our primary income. The markets have destabilized so badly, for the first time in over two years, I have over 100 GB in savings - and that's ONLY due to selling Jaglion boosts. Most of my hoard on both accounts has lost half or more value.

Edit: They lowered the price of decors already. Which means having more JB to get GMOs. Please, PLEASE do not suggest this. We might already see some destabilization from this one change alone.

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[♰] Yharnam (#112370) is that the projected 'future that didn't come to pass' value of your hoard based on old peak sales points, or the value you invested diminishing over time because you'd paid out of season prices & now the items you purchased are worth less?

I absolutely hear you about the breeding items not reaching peak prices out of season any more, and still have most of my Feb hoard for that reason (hoping it might improve), but am just wondering if the issue is market predictability or the current market trends not fulfilling (what used to be stable) predictions.

Thank you for taking the time to share such a thoughtful reply, hope this isn't read in any particular tone (conversational/information-seeking/casual).

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⪘ SiRah (#159527) :: Yeah no worries. I do appreciate the clarification of tone tho! Thank you :3

These are specifically items that used to have few listings and those listings that existed were relatively stable (within 1-4 GB variation at most across usually est. 10 -20 listings after an event), and now the listings are over-saturated. Many applicators, for instance, saw over 15 GB drops in value, including brand new applicators losing value almost immediately due to, again, over-saturation and poor undercutting.

I made most of my 'fortune' here by amassing items during events like these and selling them out of season. So seeing suggestions like these raise alarm bells, because i've watched the pattern. and i feel it will lead to even more over-saturation.

I think a chunk of the issue is that LD is pumping out content too fast and not giving existing content time to generate interest and worth. Mind-boggling amounts of bases, markings and new content are being churned out so quickly, that even though I'm an active player, I lose track of what's coming out.

On the flip side, attempts to introduce new breeding items have mostly been bad for the lion market (ochre powder a great example).

I feel like the site sorely needs as much attention focused on the recode, so they can introduce some new mechanics to generate value. secondary mutations would be a boon, for instance, or that player suggestion for combo patches/pie to create new pies/patches. I think that part of the issue why mutations are devalued is because most can't have much done with them (posing, decorations), and this issue wasn't a problem when the site was small, but it is now. And it's all a rippling effect that crashes into other parts of the site. Why use breeding items when most muties aren't desirable? Why buy them? Etc.

If we see some concentrated effort to fix parts of this site that have gone neglected for a long time, actually get the recode, and something added to the game which makes these items sustain their worth - or even increase it - then yeah, absolutely! I would support making more encounters and stuff a bit easier to get.

But right now, there's not a lot of use for GMO cows, and single markings have lost a lot of worth, and i worry about the market.

Thank you as well for engaging. ♥

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Just gonna riff off this,

New things are introduced to keep players inspired and motivated to spend time and/or real world currency. That's the thing: Nothing's worth spending on anymore; we may still want to play, and are trying to generate ideas on how to make it possible to enjoy items at a rate that would lead to prices rising for those trying to hit economic goals or self-generating wealth within the game. Those who do spend (mostly) do so knowing full well they may never make back anything they've just spent & that's not a great situation for the game makers to be in.

Older/BO-focused/'can I breed this cheaper than they're asking for myself' players aren't really opening their game wallets for anything other than the multi-thousands end-game high BO beauty or a personal nostalgic happy whim purchase and new players/app-earance focused/'does this make me happy now' aren't seeing the value in loooong drawn-out expensive projects for a lion they can make better/shinier/more sparkly now. Other than, unfortunately, bragging rights. Which.. don't really work as what are you bragging of, randomizer being kind? spending a lot? ;;'

It's supposed to not be any harder than in past years to earn JB, but rates feel and seem much lower. They haven't changed, but we're earning less than expected and we have expectations about the market and earnings because we're trying to stay afloat/meet game goals/keep playing.

I'm sort of trying to adapt to the 'new economy' by understanding that when market predictions fail it's not the fault of the game to make up for players' whims while holding on to my old 'never gonna get this back' 'it matters to me' 'this is pretty (to me)' reasons for playing.

I've been at 'I don't know if i'll still be playing then' reasons for in-game decisions for what feels like years now. Inevitably this will lead to actually not playing (again.), or changing my playstyle that's evolving as I write this (I can't believe I just cleared 50+ lionesses i'd been hanging on to to Nature Reserve my goodness) but also i'm not motivated to spend because nothing's actually worth it to anyone other than me.
Chasing new bases doesn't always work out because inevitably someone will get the shiny thing on their first try & list it for what it's worth to them.
I tried that last year but this year am trying to Focus! on my old project only so that's lead me to trim back all the excess cool rosette color combinations and attempts at breeding someone else's dream lion that I could have kept if I was making what i'd expected from double-Lamb full days or just trying to produce pretty lionesses for others side projects and just focus on my own goals/desires.
I might barely make enough to roll a month or two before next September, but that means i'm not gonna be here spending/saving/producing/playing in 'off' months or when others expect their breeding items to rise out of season.
I may be one player but i'm sort of talking for myself and as an example of why some things just aren't playing out as predicted any more- i'm sure the player I was initially responding to has thought through all this before but maybe they or someone else have a new insight to truncate all this nonsense and babble.

Appreciate the clarification, would like to add that some items that are retaining value are unexpected (Below).
As an alternative, i've mostly sunk most of my wealth & resources wholly directly into (Oh the irony! I literally stopped typing when I only had this Appreciate & As an alternative sentence began to refresh at Tier 2 as it was opened so I did some breeding s xD) - breeding.
First, as a snap decision because I was excited & naïve the first year & then too attached to my newly-formed lion pride to just 'waste their heats' or scrap & start over when i'd saved enough to start anew. That nostalgia had positive economic effects because I was spending out of season to fuel other players' gameplay while producing lions they could save for (er.. not really, I tried; but you see my rambling point here) & sending GB back into the economy a lot to make that playstyle work. A few years' back someone phrased RMA as a 'much needed' GB sink & I did that too for a bit but right now there's not enough of it flowing around (?).

Luck ebbs & flows but all in all breeding or holding back/onto the stockpile is an item, time, energy, resources- sink.

(Below:) The unexpected items are those that are 'hard' for the new higher-luck or sheer-numbers-winning-higher-userbase-count players to access, yet desirable (more so than a 'rare' BO marking that can be spread to hundreds with just 1 King) so they're willing to pay more for those, but things they can find "easily" in explore have no value to them. September items were in the hands of established players before, I expect we'll see a similar crash & probably not past 20-25gb or so but with less GB flowing around we won't be buying for more than that ourselves either so i'm curious to see how the mindset adapts to GMO suddenly being 15-20gb.
There's enough supply as you've mentioned that there's no 'need' for prices to increase, and no reason that makes sense for 'all of a sudden prices are higher' - except for those few things that someone is willing to randomly pay a lot for. They don't need to pay more for the items we'd expect to rise because another will be listed in short time and in part of a different value system (I'm glad players are willing to breed a hybrid without a buffy/gop to keep rolling but goodness the difference in mindset (HAVE FUN~ Yaaay!!) and turnover expectation).
My own ability to play with longevity in mind has been effected for similar/other reasons but it's strangely led me to splurge on out-of-season prices back in Jaglion release and then be stubborn about pricing now which lead to me being here now trying to make up for that with some earnings and paying very close attention to my JB vs. previous years. Not saying the game should make up for my downfall at all, just sharing why i'm typing so much to essentially agree with you about the price-setting responsibility of JB rates- but, really, honestly, i'm literally not spending on out of season gnaws any more unless I get a huge windfall and am eager to make my project dreams a reality *now*. That's not good either, for players to only use a Gnaw to pass a new trait & not bother making projects that incorporate Gnaws like my 2019 Double Rosette BO base (so. common. now.) dreams.
We're left with only our hope that they will rise because we were counting on making similar returns or being able to play for the rest of the year based off of that. They haven't saved up, spent, in-game stressed and worked for items where it would have been a 'waste of her heat' to breed without X, Y, Z breeding items even at out of season prices because the return was always 'worth it'.

When I started playing there was a bit of a cranky general feel when things would rise or get listed up right out of the month but players grumbled & paid because they had no choice... if you wanted the thing, you had to pay as only a few (Still) had it; all aspects are important, those who save items for off season & those who use theirs up immediately to help those items be more scarce later.
It doesn't make sense, if you're introduced to this game economy as it is, to just suddenly accept that items will change if you're not seeing actual diminishing supply.
I'm actually pretty good at market when I bother but i'm here for lions & get bored just gaming the market so focusing the majority of my energy on items has always been a bit of a pipe dream for me.
I hear the strain because i'm currently trying to convince myself that 100 Buffy is only 1,000gb-2,000gb & won't possibly ever make it back to 2,500gb (Maybe the new max?) to 3,000gb as bulk.
I think you're putting the income stream first which is logical (won't claim to know why you're here!) but regardless we're just trying to have fun & play the game how we want to *for or for not the foreseeable future*.

I've only ever engaged with items in order to produce pretty (to me) lions. When lions aren't selling, or a player becomes unwilling to sell at that low a price & turns to destroying or keeping things at bay a while, there's no income stream to breed more with & no enthusiasm for paying out of season prices.

This is the first September that the current hoard that has contributed to low-cost out-of-season Feb & March etc. items has made it through. They're now earning JB "for free" & some who've been here before are comparing these rates to our last years' rates and trying to predict/analyze/determine what the best route is. They haven't seen GMO cows follow a pattern of crashing to 20-25gb directly following a 40-60GB+ years' season where they're "only 100 JB" (saw in chat) or have players requesting sales for 8-10gb (Trading Center Looking For Trades) because all the players bought GMO cows that year & not (For example) Ochre Saltlicks.

I feel like the market in general (has been for years and still) is forcing more players to either become more tactical in their purchases, hold on to some for later months where they would have otherwise spent them all in-season (hi xD), or just stop playing for a while until the Right Month comes back 'round and they can spend time to earn where they don't have resources. (Also, hi.)

I may not be around as long as some but I can sort of try to balance my own impulsive 'pretty lions now' with some form of understanding that if I Spend it all now I can't have it later & also since I will not be getting more for it later why not spend it now?
But I also can't justify my breedings with any form of return on investment any more so if common sense wins out against nostalgic immediate gratification or continued playtime and good will towards the playerbase at large I just don't buy out of season any more. I'm sure i'm not the only one.

This means that reliable items that are spread and shared end up not reaching their old potential.

I suppose i'm sharing my current thoughts which overlap with those voiced by many others because i'm feeling that markets do change and adapt but 'this is no market!! this is an outrage!!' xD

While longevity is a primary concern for why JB rate increases may not be wise, I am mainly engaged because i'm engaging more and making less. Not for market reselling purposes, not for breeding or selling immediately purposes, simply earing less JB than I did in previous years with the same level of engagement.

I appreciate consistency at least on the generative side.


Whether that's because somehow the userbase is spreading a set rate between them or just players are paying more attention to the unlucky bars (it's never made mathematical sense to spend on energy boosts for a September grind to me, but because it doesn't make sense that means you can't really reliably make up for lower time spent playing) because rates haven't changed on the game side or whatever it may be,
It somehow both makes no logical sense for prices to rise if items are more plentiful but I feel the need to speak up about if items aren't more plentiful the very gameplay style that leads to out of season item purchases is put into jeopardy.

September items should stay somewhat scarce to maintain value, but we're seeing more players breed rosette hybrids without Gnaws because there is literally no marking except for the first 1-2 copies after a new shiny tempting release that is worth a Gnaw, either.

I'm stuck.





Edit: I suppose my response to myself would be something along the lines of every player determines their own reason for playing, and sometimes it's good that a game may be not providing everything someone needs to fulfill the 'gaming' portion of their free time they choose to spend on this game, so adaption and evolution of both gameplay styles and market predictions are necessary to keep going- but it's very. very unfortunate when players are stopping to play before they want to because they can't look at their dwindling investments any more or have feelings of apathy, disconnect , discouragement and disappointment far grander than the temporary aww man about not getting desired breeding results or seeing prices not keeping up due to market issues (not just the randomization the site seems built around), and other things that could be helped by some engagement or involvement.

This is SiRah #159527 from my Main. (I was over here breeding & forgot to check for continuinty's sake before posting xD.)

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Thank you all for your support & interest! I've read a lot of your guys replies, I'll be updating this more to touch on more of the overall issues with the game because there is a lot

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No worries. And SiRah, I will try to respond and probably have to do so in chunks (reading more a little hard, im very exhausted).

TBH Ozy i think that a big core issue with LD is that back in the day, items like gmo cow used to have a lot of worth because muties were more desirable, and there were less mutations, so ppl were much more willing to grind and buy these. but currently most muties are worthless or hard to sell and hybrids have started to see the decline, yeah. players have to get more and more extreme with their studs and even that doesnt guarantee a sale. the game just needs new mechanics to invest existing items / lions into tbh.

@SiRah:
"I think you're putting the income stream first which is logical (won't claim to know why you're here!) but regardless we're just trying to have fun & play the game how we want to *for or for not the foreseeable future*."

Yep. And it's because without making money, i can't have my 'fun'. I like commissioning artists on here, customizing lions to raffle for my clan, and buying custom decors. that's fun to me. it's non-project things that bring me joy, but in order to enjoy those things, i had to get very serious about the market and earning. i don't have the kind of energy to grind to earn as much as some players, so i gotta make sure i buy into stable markets.

for a long time, applicators *were* a stable market! idk if anyone remembers those days. but then the population boom meant the market was oversaturated. and then the pie/patch market collapsed after that black friday where they messed with MoD distribution. And neither of those i could have foreseen. so i lost all my income on MoDs that cost me about 200 gb collectively and i made maybe 30 gb back on because G2 patches/pies were oversaturated. And every app i had in my inventory from the previous year that should have sold for a fair bit out of season suddenly dropped.

I still remember the sinking feeling as i went thru and price checked, and almost everything was 2-5 GB. I was panicking. This was years worth of work devalued in just a few months.

So having my hoard devalued, losing everything bc of the BF change and boom, all lead me to realize, i cannot afford to play for fun anymore.

"I've only ever engaged with items in order to produce pretty (to me) lions."

I did for a long time. And Yharnam remains a very stubborn example of this. Yharnam isn't by any means a valuable king. But he's based on a Bloodborne skybox theme, and he's valuable to me because i think he's gorgeous and i worked really hard on him. But he doesn't make money. And so he doesn't fund my ability to have fun with my other lions. so i just dont. none get decorated bc ive been forced to start viewing them as temporary assets i will lose money on if they dont produce a soul, vs "i love all my girls and i want to decorate them each and maybe i will get a soul and that'd be cool" like i used to.

"While longevity is a primary concern for why JB rate increases may not be wise, I am mainly engaged because i'm engaging more and making less. Not for market reselling purposes, not for breeding or selling immediately purposes, simply earing less JB than I did in previous years with the same level of engagement."

It's basically game mirroring RL. working harder and making less. I'm rolling out of obligation now, not because i want to. I have not only my own projects and fun to support and finance, but i have a clan to upkeep and provide for. and years ago, when i started my projects and my clan, i didnt have to work this hard. you'd really think that as time goes on, i'd acrue more and have a bigger safety net.

but none of us could have foreseen the player boom and the market collapse. not one of us. because LD was a small site for a very long time, and who went "oh yeah, someone will make lioden tiktok popular and we'll get a surge" (????????? WHAT?)

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