+1 Support.

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I support the change in fees.

But am completely against the subordinate challenge. People would easily be able to change their males.

Why is it bad?

1. because of customization income for the site. People can buy sub males with decent stats and custom colors for a few SB. These submales would easily overthrow the king because of their higher stats. There ya go, no one on Lioden would customize their male for 10GB anymore, since they can have a custom male almost for free.

2. because of fairness. The breeding of extremely high statted males is already rapid, this way you would increase the speed and the rate of stat increase. People would just go ahead and breed a high statted male, challenge and chase off the king, then breed it to the mother to gain more stats, or breed it to another high level lioness, quickly get the heir, age it to reach adulthood, then chase the king with it. Etc etc etc.

3. basically it fails at the beginning, since submales are usually better statted than the king, thus they would beat them anyway at any age, making this not a challenge but a guaranteed swap.

And why dont people understand, that submales arent useless.
Their sole purpose is to make the heir choosing easier. It was introduced because people were complaining that it is nearly impossible to make sure that a male cub is in the den when your male retires. This is why the submale position is introduced. His sole purpose is to patrol and gain stats, prepare him for his upcoming trial as king. he is not a co-leader. he is the future heir for your lion. He is not supposed to have any other use, after all, you have the choice if you want to feed another hungry mouth and take care of one more lion or not. it is your choice when you want to choose a submale. It is not necessary to have one either. And I like that.

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Great idea :D full support!

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I support, though I must say I disagree with this statement, It's incredibly difficult to build up their stats through patrolling . Coming from someone who got a sub male with just about NCL stats to the stat leaderboard by the time he took over, I will argue that it is not hard to do c:

I probably wouldn't use the overthrow thing anyways. I'm extremely active with patrolling, and will spends hours each day doing it, so the longer I let my heir be a sub the better his stats.

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First off, I agree with Black-Onyx:

"Maybe an idea to penalize the submale would be to prevent him from going on patrol for a while, like 5 Lioden months (5 days real time) so he couldn't add up his stats to attack the main again."

Secondly, we could even add something like the randomizer for NPC fights. The skill is more important in the main and sub fighting for supremacy. Just like how you've got the example above of the sub chasing off the exking gives +karma and killing the exking would be -karma, have the other way around hold true, as well. It should be a choice whether either happens. If the old male wins, they'd get +karma for forgiving the younger male, and -karma for killing or chasing the younger male off. That way, even if the sub loses, we, as players, not only win, but we don't lose a nice sub.

While a lot on Lioden revolves around real prides, there's still a lot that doesn't. Keeping the submale wouldn't destroy the enjoyment of the game. There's still plenty of things to work towards, in my opinion.

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support i love this

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I support this idea. As for people not customizing their Kings anymore it doesn't really matter. I haven't spent 10GB to customize my male because I always breed or buy pretty Heirs. I customized by first King and none after that. Not going to spend real money for crappy stats no matter how nice my King would be.

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yes i hate that its 10 the closer your male gets to death lke even make it sbs if hes like 14...its close enough just let me get rid of him!

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Lol, i support but i wish that you could have a mercy button and to keep the dethroned king alive and to keep him in your pride until you kill him or something ;-;. This would be really cool though+ i would still buy gb but not as crazy as before.

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yes i fully agree and i agree with a penalty like he cant challenge again for amount of days or patrol and i agree with Sans, about keeping the Ex king in your pride to be more like real life prides i have lheard that once a new male has dethroned a king in his pride he becomes the new king and most of the time will keep the old king in the pride to remind them or humiliate them

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What if you want to keep the old king in the pride, as a submale? Couldn't there be three options: to kill him (bad karma), to chase him (no karma at all), or let him stay as a submale (good karma gain)?

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The reason that submales are so cheap is their current limited utility. If something like this gets implemented, the price will increase. I don't think the current price should be considered as part of the decision.

I like the submale challenge idea, because I think it would make the game dynamic more interesting, but it also needs to carry a significant penalty to prevent it from wiping out the entire dynasty system by removing reroll time.

Proposing
1) Submale must have higher stats than the current king for the challenge option to appear.
2) Significant cooldown time. Suggested 1 year.
3) Chance of success is randomized, not based on stat difference or any other controllable factor.
4) Chance of success is low. Suggested 5%
5) Equal chance of losing the submale. Suggested 5%
6) Submale's appearance must be used. Remove option to keep current king's appearance during submale challenge.
7) Bonus! Chance of scars.
8) Energy useage?

Because once you beat up the old man, you gotta leave.

This gives players the option to risk their submales on a challenge and makes the game more interesting, but doesn't give players any new advantages in gameplay because it also removes the ability to quickly swap in cheap stat replacers that haven't been carefully bred for looks.

Personally, I like adding voluntary risk to games because it gives players calculable options with values that differ based on individual circumstances. For a new player with a starter male, there is no risk because almost any submale is better* than the current male. The cooldown time and chance of losing the submale will make players with a more invested submale think carefully before using the challenge option rather than just waiting for retirement. The GP option is still there for players who are willing to pay to reduce wait time without risk.

*Better meaning that using the submale as king is preferable for the player, even if the submale is inexpensive or easy to obtain by breeding an NCL to a stud with the minimum fee, or adopting a male cub from the giving tree. The amount being risked by the player is lower than the opportunity cost of letting the starter king age out. The same percentage of success still applies.

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Springdragon (#12577)
I love your idea a lot.

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Aw man, that makes it more realistic but what if you have a 1000 stat main lion but a 500 stat fab sub male? I would be doomed ;-;

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Sans - Then you wait for your main male to retire and patrol your sub to increase his stats, or you can pay 10GB to retire early.

If the success rate is 5%, it will take an average of 20 tries to succeed in an overthrow. A single submale might not succeed within his lifetime, but it still gives the player something exciting to do every 12 days. Two submales, both challenging, will probably succeed in 10 years, but one of them will likely be killed. If a player wanted to maximise on the overthrow, that person would have to go through 20 submales to skirt the cooldown, challenging and then chasing right away.

If the current male is so worthless that the amount a better king could earn is greater than the cost of 20 submales, it makes sense to force the swap. If you only have one good heir, it's better to keep the current king and wait. If you have two or three, go ahead and challenge, but be prepared to eat a loss.

Numbers are subject to change, but you get the idea.

New features aren't supposed to give players any advantage over the game, or it will become unbalanced. If something gets easier, something else has to get harder to balance it out.

Edit:

Math correction. It will take 45 submales to have a 99% chance of success. 10% will bring that down to 25 submales for a 97% chance of success.

New suggested 15% rate of success per overthrow attempt. 15 attempts required for a 97% chance of success.

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