Just curious, If something was implemented would we still be allowed to buy/sell art outside of the system? Trade art without it and your on your own type deal?

I'm all for making it safer but i'm also a lazy butt that doesn't want to do more then i have to xD

I've done art and not been paid and i've also paid for art and never received it, I just avoid those people in future and get on with it. So i probably wouldn't use an official feature unless i had no other choice.

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So far I think I'll have my opinion as no support, I see why the buyer would want to see the piece before they buy it and why some artists might not be 100% trusted with the money however, in seeing the art work, may it be complete, what is stopping the buyer from taking a screenshot and cancelling or simply just cancelling cus "its too ugly" or "i changed my mind"

This is why some artists prefer to get payed all or half of it in advanced. It's a security thing.

However if you buy art, pay half first and then the art doesn't look as advertised it would then theres a problem. (showing art they made but preforming poorly for some reason)
Its not the artists fault if they do advertise correctly however and do their absolute best, some things are just more difficult to draw especially if someones expectations are higher than your actual art skill.

Now i doubt anything i said made sense or even will get read by anyone but it was an attempt at sharing my opinion i suppose

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i heavily agree with starfruits idea!

Cept with the "accept payment" maybe files/currency cant be sent unless BOTH parties click "accept" on it. If one does, there should be a timer set (like 2 days or something) and after thats up, currency/art gets refunded and a reminder sent to the other person sayin "hey - get on and accept!" ((i personally think there should be a set-in-stone message, not an option to write one yourself as people could get kinda mean))

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What did the starving artists ever do to you, Lioden?

I agree with everybody saying the artist should be paid at least half or more before starting, as the artist is spending time out of their day to do this art.

Maybe a mixture of @ www.starfruit.com (#112180), @ Xanthipe (#110718), and @ deertush (#50864) 's ideas

And hopefully both parties can be pinged when one responds to the other, as I lost a commission one time when somebody wasn't subscribed to my thread. I was either too lazy or too scared to message them. (I was quite new at the time)

I hope this helps a little, just one idea! :)

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Allow us to sell our own characters through toyhou.se . Begin a moderation team specifically for character sales.

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I don't think lioden has any jurisdiction over other websites unless they partner with them

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Maybe a system where it opens a little chat log between the artist ad the commissioner, where at the bottom it shows how much the commissioner had paid and once the artist clicks a button that says "Art done" and a the commissioner presses a button that says "Art received", the payment is sent over, and the artist could upload a file into the chat that that automatically has some sort of watermark on it that say "not bought" until both parties have pressed their button and then the file gets pmed to the commissioner with no watermark and the money gets pmed to the artist.

I'm bad at explaining but I think a button system with a watermark would be nice, so if anyone doesn't press "I received it" and cancels after the artist finishes, all they'll get is a big ol "NOT SOLD" on their art piece, which can then be reported to mods, ,maybe, if its possible, even have it so the image is uploaded in very low quality, and to prove its done how the commissioner likes the artist can send wips / screenshots via the chat, able to send either links or upload images in the chat specifically for commissions, though I would suggest the artist puts its own watermark on all screenshots sent

(Though many people have already suggest the watermark thing, I think the little chat box would be nice and easier for an artist to organize)

Also maybe the artist can put in a time limit? Like if they have something like "My art will be finishing in this much time, if not done or started by then you get a refund" and the trade automatically ends at this time, but it should be an optional feature only for artist who want to put a time limit on themselves to help get stuff done. (For personally I get stuff done faster when I give myself a deadline)

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i dont know about you guys but as an artist i do not start drawing until i am payed in FULL. this is how i make money, and it is a business, im not going to do something without having been payed because there are other commissioners who have already payed. you dont go to the grocery store, take food, go home and eat it all, and then pay, do you? so why does art get treated like that?

i vote that either the artist gets payed half right away then the other half when theyre done or PREFERABLY the artist gets payed in full right away and if they dont provide the art in the allotted time frame the commissioner must ask for a refund or negotiate new terms, and if that comes up unsuccessful mods must get involved and force a retransfer of money. if a retransfer through the mods becomes necessary the artists thread gets taken down and is no longer able to sell their art on lioden because they scammed their commissioner (this may be contested by the artist in occasional circumstances).

i know this suggestion may be a little more work on the mods shoulders but if you want to create a sound and fair marketplace for the people who are actually creating and churning out this art i think this is the best way. thank you.

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Longtime freelance artist here! Experience with both Paypal and digital currency.

The amount of time that an artist takes to make a piece is widely left for individual determent between customer and artist, such as a certain date they need it done before. Personally, I always ask this for my paypal commissions, but have never had a time limit before. People have always left it to my discretion, which is not to say I can just drag it on forever. Although I do retain contact until the piece is complete. Alternatively, I am always open to receiving messages myself and provide wips when asked for.

Suggestion #1:
Based on the above said, the art sales system could perhaps include a feature which allows the artist to show their progress to the customer without the customer having to ask for it all the time. (sometimes more than once a day, which in term is the opposite negative state.) Perhaps a weekly WIP? Or the time can be custom set, based on the difficulty of the requested art.

Suggestion #2:
Similar to invoicing. Invoicing via Paypal is the primary way of payment for freelancers of all kinds. It's fairly easy to navigate and allows you to send reminds to the customer, in case they are late on the pay. Two other great things are being able to leave a tip and paying partially. (some amount at the start, rest at the end - for example.)

Suggestion #3:
Messaging. Similar to providing wips from the first suggestion, I think a way to message each other in the sales system/client will be very helpful. Such as, but not limited to: Informing them if I am having technical or otherwise issues and an update or even the completion of the piece could come late. Asking them for further references and feedback. Discussing just about anything related. I know this may become increasing difficult to code, but my reasoning for finding more convenience in this kind of option is due to the way that I currently have to conduct it. We have a message limit of 200 and along with any commission messages I have, there is also any other in-game message I may receive for totally unrelated topics. Shuffling through and finding the ones I need for the specific commission is a hassle sometimes. I tend to just screenshot them because the possibility of getting deleted is also present.
Please, if someone has already figured out a more convenient way, do let me know~

Suggestion #4:
I mentioned it could be a client, in the sense that artists are not only found via the forums, but by simply browsing profiles. Users who take commissions could be given the option to add a widget to their page which would then lead to their commission information and prices, from there buyers may even be able to begin a conversation about the specific thing they are interested in that the person offers. Instead of, again, sending PMs. It could just be me that sucks at sorting messages, but oh well :d I might as well put it out there. I don't think anyone would be offended.

--

I already see some great suggestions above, such as the cancellation option and equal standing of both people involved in the transaction. Even if it is just game currency and items, there should still be a level of professionalism.

If I think of more I will come back. For now will browse the rest. Hopefully its helpful, if not possible to be coded. Thanks for always doing your best and keep making the site better ^^


From: Kaz #63577
(this is side account)

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Still gonna suggest allowing character sales.
I’m also against the idea of such heavy involvement in the art sales community to the point where the site creates a whole system for it. Unless you plan to include artists who create commissions via USD or all other types of currency, I think a moderation team specifically for art sales would be best instead of creating a trade like system with artists getting paid digital items only.
Also, being paid in half before and half after needs to be optional. I don’t do commissions that way. I, as the artist and seller, should decide how and when I’m paid. Not the site.

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Similar to the current "Account standing" feature in the settings of our dens for mods/admins to view, perhaps a similar art seller standing/review could be put into place? Some previous comments in this thread discuss artists ignoring comments interjected by the buyer/OP even when specifically asked. Having a better standing would give comfort in buyers that their seller is reputable and can be trusted. A simple questionnaire of things such as; "Were you pleased with the final result of your commission?", "Was there ample communication between yourself and the artist?", "Was the commission delivered within a reasonable and/or within the discussed time range?", and other such queries that are not specifically RATING an artist but simply answering yes/no to the performance shown.

@Jamie (#90498) The issue with selling characters has already been discussed in a previous thread, explaining that it is a matter of selling someone else's art. ( https://www.lioden.com/topic.php?id=11034 ) I don't think that discussion is the matter at hand concerning this forum thread on transactions between a commissioner and buyer.

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I've also come to this concern that too much involvement by the site might be worse. A system for artist and customer to moderate, as it has always been and is fair, instead of the site deciding how we conduct ourselves. Something to simply make it easier for these transactions to happen and then a moderation team to review mod box tickets in case there was misconduct.

I would also prefer if using this system is optional. My current setup works for me despite not being the most convenient thing, but I've had zero problems and zero unsatisfied customers.
I do however understand that this is not the case for everyone!

Would also greatly appreciate if real currency commissions remain allowed on the website, without use of any system. I don't even see how a system could be made for that in the first place, but adding just in case.

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I know the issue but there’s also a solution. I thought this was an art overhaul thread including the TOS so I was just suggesting it because it seems like an outdated rule.

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Currently we do not get involved in any way, shape, or form with real life currency transactions. If a player commissions an artist and pays with real life currency, we can no longer offer any support to that player if they do not receive their art, even if the transaction took place on Lioden.

More than likely, the system will be in place for Lioden assets, and players can continue to accept and pay for art with real life currency with the knowledge that our staff cannot offer assistance if it goes wrong.

Please keep in mind that this thread is to specifically discuss the possibility of an official art sale system for Lioden and we are not looking for suggestions to tweaking our rules regarding character sales. You're more than welcome to create an entirely separate thread if you feel that rule should be adjusted!

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Official Art Sale Ideas

I'm not sure if this is where we're suppose to post this, and I'm very open to feedback on this idea. I see a lot of hurdles implementing this on the site, but I think it will be well worth for the site overall. I know people who buy GB, have no interest in lions or the games, just to buy art over our forum. I think offering an art sale system would be a great addition to the site. This is just my immediate thoughts on a possible new system for this, and while it might not be the best, it hopefully will spark some better ideas.


First thing that would need to be addressed, would be some form of barrier to entry and how to set up a shop. Some people may not care for this concept, but I think is vital to keeping the quality of art decent and not just have a flooding of random art pieces. I'm not proposing that this barrier be exactly GB/SB, it could be as simple as account age or number of rollovers, but there should be something to set up a shop.

Second, what will be the basic set up of the Art Sale individual area? I think the easiest to implement and for players to use would essentially be an "Art Branch". There could be a top portion with slots for sample art pieces, where I think additional art sample slots should cost SB/GB like how the current branch works. The bottom portion would be art for sale, where again, I think additional sale slots should cost SB/GB. OR Each sample up to would equal the amount of art sale slots you could have, so it helps ensures the seller is not selling anything that doesn't have at least one clear example of.

Third thing, is how are sample art pieces to be displayed? Obviously, the site isn't going to want to be hosting a ton of images for random, so a solution would be a series of predetermined sized slots that would be populated by the player with URLs much like the unique avatar system already on the site.

Fourth, how will the art transaction occur between players? I think each "art item" available for purchase should have a small image, a title (head shot, full body color), size (in pixels, not "large), Color (yes/no), and a short description of full scope of work provided. When purchased, there should be an area for the buyer to comment and post links for example of their characters or what they want. Artist would then accept the art commission, and an automessage would be sent to the buyer, something like, "ARTISTPLAYER has accepted your art commission! It will be completed within ___ days!" When the artist finishes, they would post the link of the finished piece in a supplied area, and then the artist would mark it as completed.

Fifth, about the costs/money transaction, ect. I think it would be best for when an art commission is purchased, the money for the art piece should go into non-player-limbo, much like an auction bid, and released upon completion. This does two things; 1.) Ensure the buyer can pay for the art and that artist will be paid that the end, 2.) Ensure that if the art piece is never completed, there can be an easy refund by staff. I don't think art requests should be cancel able, just because a buyer wants to spend the GB on something else because it is likely the artist is already working on the piece.

Sixth, there will need to be outlined which type of links and art are publicly allowed to be sold and listed. Because this site is 16+, will adult art be allowed? Which art sites are allowed to be linked by artists? What are the repercussions for those posting adult art or adult links? Is adult art fine to request as long as it's a private transaction? Will there be an additional age requirement for art shop section then? Should all art follow the COC? Food for thought for staff implementing this function.

Seventh, how will the art sales section be policed and modded by staff? What rules should be in place and what is not enforceable? Here are some bullet points on my thoughts on rules.
I believe there should be a rule involving providing art within the time provided, with perhaps a three day or week leeway of after the date before the paid price should be refunded.
I believe art quality should be very lightly policed, to limit the staff having to deal with buyers remorse of nit-picky buyers. Should the art piece be drastically different than the sample provided or not at all like what the buyer wanted,
I believe that if an artist consistently commits bad practices (such as bait and switch example provided about, or failure to provide art, or failure to consistently finish art in time) that the art shop privilege should be revoked through a temporary or permanent art sale ban.
I believe that if a buyer consistently commits bad practices they should be banned from buying art, such as constantly contesting completed projects, harassing artists, ect.
There should be a basic outline of what frequently used terms mean to provide structure, such as what a headshot would be, what a fullbody would be, ect.
Payment given for art sales, a small percentage should in some way go to the Lioden site like the custom decor, but not at all as pricey. I'm not sure what this would look like, I'm open to ideas. I'll probably add to this later, a little tired of typing!

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