Sorry its not my intention to come across that way, im autistic so i know my tone doesnt come across well with text. I was just trying to say that i had already presented why that argument was false- I completely understand why you t h i n k that- but its just false. Not in base of opinion- the reason goodie bags are no longer allowed it because the items received essentially go undocumented. And i agree IF these threads were using goodie bags as means of trade then they should absolutely be banned. But they the fact of the matter is they arent. So every transaction is documented in case of possible scamming. i understand wanting to agree to disagree on the fact you think it encourages gambling, ect. But facts arent an opinionated thing. Facts are- fact. The key difference in the matter is they arent. Its not a detail to brush off because its the main issue. People are worried its just a loophole for goodie bags to still be used. Because the goodie bags cannot be documented. that was the issue with goodie bags. But these a r e documented. If someone is scammed there is proof right there, they can easily screenshot and report. you cant do that with goodie bags which is why they were deemed unfair and unsafe.

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I'm a little bit confused because at some points it sounds like you think we're talking like they are using goodie bags. Just to be very clear, we know they aren't using goodie bags. /gen

Honestly, people are allowed to disagree. Even about what you reckon is a fact. Some people acknowledge the facts differently. And it's not some clearcut thing like scientific law. Like I said, we can argue about the exact details, but I believe in essence these are very very similar things with very very similar risk factors that allow people to essentially use goodie bags without the in-game function. For all I know, you're stating something that was outlined in an update by admins, but there can very well be other valid reasons that they haven't outlined that people can generally agree on. Like they're ripe scamming opportunities. And sure, mods can moderate it, but I don't think they should really have to. Understaffed, busy, more things they have to worry about, etc..

I mean, you can think whatever you want. I don't particularly mind. I'm just bored and blabbing on a Lioden forum for shits and giggles. But that's just what I think.

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I am assuming from Itsfunns ID they weren't around when "mystery GOODIE bags" were the big scam of the year, people were;

- Posting threads saying you had a chance at X In a goodiebag
- Being paid SB/GB/High Value Items for said goodiebag.
- Never providing the "chance" prize, and in fact the threads would end up locked due to suspicious activity.

Now people are
- Posting threads saying you have a chance at x in a "mystery" box/bag
- Being paid SB/GB/High Value Items for said goodiebag.
- Never providing the "chance" prize, and threads are getting locked due to suspicious activity.

Are you starting to see why we are concerned yet?

I also don't know where you are getting the idea the contents of goodie bags weren't documented? I created one and it shows up in my userlog just fine.

Created a goodie bag #1357020710118 called Testing, containing: Absurdly Big Bone, Absurdly Big Bone, Absurdly Big Bone, Absurdly Big Bone, African Cucumber, African Cucumber. 2023-10-22 05:21:27

So no, goodie bags werent banned because they weren't able to be traced. They were banned because PEOPLE WERE RUNNING MYSTERY BAG SCAMS WITH THEM.

This included forum threads, raffles saying the "goodie bag had a chance to include x!" that never did.

I am trying to nip this in the bud before it becomes a serious issue like Goodie Bags did.

I also want to make it clear - if you haven't noticed lioden is moving AWAY from "chance" items/games, if you havent noticed that nearly all applicators can now be chosen for their markings instead of getting 1 in 4?
Or if you haven't noticed that a lot of the gambling %ages are typically shown?

There is at this moment no need to remove Slots etc because theres a good chance with the recode the game will break anyway!

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The thing with the slots game and RMAs is that their odds are actually set in the game's programming. There's no way for Lioden admins to lie and secretly re-roll so you never get the good prize. That's the biggest concern with player-to-player mystery box stuff imo, that people can and will use it for ripoffs, and there's no way to effectively moderate it because mods can't prove for certain whether they're doing it. (Technically it is possible to flip a coin 100 times and have it land on tails every single time. That doesn't mean it's not sus when someone's loot crate setup rolls the booby prize 100 times in a row, but it does mean mods can't prove it to the usual standard of evidence. Especially since they'd have to individually examine 100 transactions which is unnecessarily time-consuming)

As stated repeatedly earlier in the thread, this just seems like a loophole for goodiebag sales which are already banned, so I really don't think continuing to allow this is reasonable.

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100% support - let's be honest, the majority of these kind of forum 'games'/whatever are just scams dressed up to look like a fun roll of the dice. People are spending currency on what amounts to an unknown and vague chance at unknown and vague prizes, with no guarantee of odds or what these prizes are. Currently I could charge 10GB in return for "100 great items, try your luck!", and then turn around and send a selection of junk worth only a few SB just because technically that's still 100 items and well, maybe you were just unlucky this time...

I'm pretty sure that's basically what most players running these games are doing (except not to quite such extremes obviously), because there's no point them doing it unless they're making a profit. Most are not going to be truly randomising anything; 9 times out of 10 they're going to give you a selection of prizes worth much less than your ticket price. Inevitably. Because otherwise there'd be nothing in it for them. Sure there are a minority of more altruistic players who are just having fun with it, but the more the concept spreads the less that's the case and the more people who are running them are doing so in bad faith - to see if they too can make some money out of it.

It isn't even fair gambling with accepted odds and oversight (not that that's actually fair either in most cases - the house always wins). The way a lot of people are setting up these threads atm is just plain profiteering at the expense of new/naive/desperate players. There's inevitably little to no real oversight possible from staff - you can't moderate whether something is truly random - and the more widespread they get the more issues and drama will ensue. I really feel it's unethical and unwise to allow people to run these kind of things in the game, and it just encourages players to leech off of each other (see also paperclip challenges, etc, seems to be a trend for these types of profit-making 'games' lately...)

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Bumping back up because it seems allowing "mystery box" sales but NOT literal goodiebag sales is confusing newer players. After all, there's functionally not much difference between sending items in a transfer manually, and putting them in a goodiebag to then transfer, so it's understandable to not realize that one is allowed but the other isn't. This further highlights why the rule should be clarified to be more consistent and avoid needing to punish people over a misunderstanding. (And in my opinion all rules should be consolidated in one place since it's likely people aren't checking the "stockpile rules" thread to even find the goodiebag prohibition in the first place.)

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I 100% understand your worries but please know not all mystery box sellers are like that! I have a post like that. There's no chances at something, just a few set boxes with set prices and set amounts! Not all people wanting to make some geebs try to scam people, but again you have a valid point!

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Again, its the few ruining it for the many. Because you might be doing it right doesnt mean multiple others arent.

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I totally agree with you! It sucks some sellers just have to ruin it for others.

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I support. Now I know why my spin the wheel didn't do very good last month. This all makes sense. It is true that there's always that person(s) who ruins a good thing for everyone else. With this being a website it easy to scam someone with a thread game. It'll be easier to just ban anything that doesn't state what the winner gets. That way it corners the scammers into a smaller space.

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Support

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What scares me is the lack of moderation and the fact that there isn't really a way to put in moderation. The mystery boxes are user-created, entirely up to the user on how they want it to be and what the rules are for them. This would make it so much easier for someone to get around the same rules that are in place for the almost identical goodie bags. They could promise one item but change their rules last second to make sure they could keep the item with plausible deniability. I understand some people enjoy these mystery boxes but why wait for a scamming scandal to rise when it can be ended now. People have already been scammed so I don't see any reason to allow these mystery boxes to remain. I'm in support of this entirely.

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