Posted by Make deafness nonlethal 717+/72-

Layara [gen 5 clean
uneven] (#155838)

Sapphic
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2018-10-10 18:39:23
Update: edited for a bit of a grammar mistake and to update number of deaf lions currently on site which is now 13

Update 2: added commenter suggestions

Update 3: Holy cow up to 102 support! Thank you so much everyone!

Update 4: thank you for the overwhelming support so far!

Update 5: there's now 15

Update 6: There's now 36, added a suggestion from the comments, and holy crap 423 support thank y'all so much!!

Similar suggestion by Phantom#145977

I believe deafness should not be a lethal mutation. Sightlessness (bundling blind and eyeless), clawlessness, and toothlessness aren't fatal and arguably would be harder to survive in the wild than deafness. I know it was added with fatal mutations but lord it makes no sense.

Things I can come up with as counter arguments:
"But if lions can't hear threats they'd die, it's more realistic!" If they can't see their threat or have teeth to deliver fatal blows they're not much better off. Also on realism: we have green and multiple other extremely unrealistically colored lions, nephelines, manticores, actual lion gods, demons and access to heaven and hell. Not to mention full sentience on par with humans. We left realism in the dust a long time ago. Also lions have been shown to take care of pride members who are injured admittedly it's uncommon but there is precedent. Best example of this being a male who, as a cub, was caught in a wire trap and for the next three years his siblings fed him prey that they had caught (story here fair warning there are graphic pictures and they are truly sickening)

"Well what about the people who've already used their jellyfish on them! It's unfair!" There's literally only 36 on site. It wouldn't be affecting as many lions as, say, making sightlessness, toothlessness, and clawless lethal.

"But in the wil-" In the wild IRL lions aren't sentient beings with functioning trade, government, language, mythology, and culture. They are capable of taking care of their disabled and really have no reason not to for over arching lore purposes, individual prides will always vary. Even in prehistory there is plenty of evidence that even Neanderthals took care of their disabled despite there not really being any benefit to them. This is the argument I see the most often and I'm not entirely sure why either. Sure there's dangers in the wild but a lot of them are mitigated by pride members just having their back. Taking care of the disabled is not new, not by a long shot, so why can't sentient lions that are basically just "humans: lion edition" take care of their disabled too?

Possible solutions:
Just take off the fatal status. Plain and simple. While I had thought of being able to king deaf lions though with a debuff DarkVenom pointed out that you aren't able to king sightless lions so maybe not. However for it potentially making no sense with the dialogue between kings and NPCs lipreading could explain it. It's not an exact science but this wouldn't be the first time fiction has had lipreading be 100%. Up to devs.

As for females: I think they should be able to be broodmothers since blind and, I'm assuming, eyeless lions can be. Since the examples I'd provided in my reasoning for why deafness shouldn't be a lethal mutation can't hunt I'd say they shouldn't be able to as well. Just to be fair.

If you really want to keep it fatal: make it so that deaf lions can be protected by broodmothers for their entire lives. If taken off protection the fatality rolls are turned back on again.

Other way to keep lethal but have it not be as facepalm inducing: have them die randomly but be able to live full lives if RNGesus is nice. Instead of them just keeling over at 4 if they've made it that far.

I personally believe the first is less annoying to code but I'm not a coder so I could be wrong. I don't know how this suggestion will be recieved but honestly it doesn't seem like it'd be the worst thing in the world. It's the only fatal mutation that really doesn't make sense as one so, if accepted, it shouldn't set a precedent for say extra limbs to be made non-fatal.

Suggestions by commentors:
DarkVenom (#121432): "Perhaps the danger of being deaf can affect cubs by SEVERELY lowering their survival bar to where it would have an extremely low chance of surviving a rollover without a broodmother or hornbill? This would make a lot of sense and be avoidable with good management of the pride and cubs, while also presenting a threat to the cub should a deaf owner forget to protect it. In addition, maybe deaf lions can be prevented from becoming broodmother themselves? A lion who can't hear a cub sneaking off or threat coming shouldn't be the one to look after the crazy children."

Frighteck (#40496): "The brood mother suggestion is cool, but I think if they made it to say.. 3,4, something like that, they would just live until old age. If they've made it that long without being able to hear then they probably have their bearings as much as any other lion." Personally I'd say if they made it to 2 they'd probably have gotten their bearings but I do think this would be a good compromise, especially if paired with an survival meter that went down more quickly making it important to provide some sort of protection to your cub asap."

toddo212213 (#21556): "another addition to this is if a deaf adol is hunting/patroling for experience there would be a significant decrease in the likely hood of bringing food/items back, seeing that when startled they will make a loud noise.

an addition to that would be for deaf/blind/eyeless when/ if they become an adol the survival bar will still be there. except when they are an adol/adult they will no be under to watch of a brood mother, but instead you can assign a lion to be their "caretaker" (sorta like a seeing eye dog but not)
the lion would be pretty much the same as a broodmother (no hunting) and no breeding (seeing that careing for cubs would distract them from monitoring the deaf/blind/eyeless) or alternatively the survival bar would decrease by half of what it would if the lion did not have a caretaker. ex: no caretaker -10% survival caretaker w/cubs -5% survival
the caretaker must not be too old (13 years+ maybe?) seeing that old lions require more sleep and such"

Scenarios for new mutation specific interaction dialogue:
From looking up deaf cats they seem to have extremely loud, almost screeching, meows that can be quite alarming if you aren't used to them.

Forgetting to look at them when you're speaking so they can read your lips (this happens IRL waayyyyy too often)

Forgetting to tap them to get their attention and startling the poor dear

Them just seeming to materialize out of thin friggin air because they're shockingly quiet (I can vouch for this one from personal experience)

Touch and body language are everything when it comes to the Deaf community maybe something related to that?

Lions learning chicken scratch to communicate since some form of signed language is out of the question



This suggestion has 792 supports and 75 NO supports.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Edited on 31/01/23 @ 19:20:12 by Layara gen 5 clean pm melon (#155838)

MillieCat (+2.6k
clean ebony) (#131583)

Monster
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2018-11-02 13:31:01
Imo, we have shaman lions this month so whatever happens in the wild doesn't happen here at this point lioden is a fantasy game with RL elements but it's not a educational game (like wolf quest is intended) so it's more a matter of "makes sense" than "not realistic/doesn't happen in the wild"

I don't think anyone here have a lion that would survive in the wild, from colorbombs to unrealistic colors (like mustard/chocolate colored NCL) and overly accessorized lions, don't think it's reasonable to focus that much on the realistic aspect of the game. In fact, if it was realistic prob I wouldn't be playing tbh, when I play I want to step as far away as possible from reality (even more so now). Besides they are sapient, talking lions and capable of taking care of each other in the way humans would

If it was realistic, when we changed kings all our cubs should be wiped, inbreeding would have an effect in the game, mutations would pop out more easily if one of the parents had it (even more so with inbreeding) and the tigon would die early because they lack a gene that controls their growing and they grow to the point their heart can't pump blood properly due their size. So don't think that realism matters if the game is fun but that's just me

I think the broadmother idea is pretty solid, for eyeless and blind too
However, if achromia was lethal, what would happen to the achromia kings? They would die too? Don't think it should be lethal tbh



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Haloclimb
{Cloudburst} (#54862)

Sapphic
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2018-11-03 17:43:05
Support! Either Eyeless, Blindness, and Achromia are all also lethal/ have the chance to be lethal (like ApocolypticTendrils said, albino animals have lowered survival because of deafness, impaired vision, lack of hunting ability and lack of UV protection, so they should face the death roll too), or none of it should be lethal.

Hell, if we wanted to be REALLY realistic, Dwarfism would run into lethal rolls as well. While cute, dwarfism females would have higher chances of dying because of either starving from not being able to hunt well, or from getting trampled by a large prey animal that fights back, and dwarfism kings would absolutely get slaughtered if they tried to take on a regular-sized male.
But we don't care about what would REALISTICALLY happen, because this is a fun lion game and tiny lions are cute! A lot of stuff in Lioden is unrealistic. And thats okay! It's just annoying to have a fairly unrealistic game, and then get a 'all deaf lions die, because Realism(tm)'



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

BUNNY (#132610)

Majestic
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2018-11-03 17:57:19
Exactly! Like I personally don't think it should be realistic and have them be realistic but at the same time I understand why it is. The confusing part is why it's only deafness is lethal. Achromia, blindness and deafness shouldn't be lethal unless they are able to be say sent out to hunt then the lethality would make sense. Or even maybe a small death roll chance like 1% so it's not likely they die but still possible. I do think they should be able to be broodmothers and not have a death roll or even just be protected by a broodmother forever like a cub. I'm not good at wording things on the spot but pretty much TLDR; Deafness, achromia, eyeless, blind, clawless, toothless, etc should either all be lethal or all be not lethal. Preferably the former since 1 I think it would be easier to just re-code deafness and 2 it doesn't make sense for only the one to be lethal.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

LeafFriedChicken (#21556)

Total Chad
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2018-11-21 02:07:16
another addition to this is if a deaf adol is hunting/patroling for experience there would be a significant decrease in the likely hood of bringing food/items back, seeing that when startled they will make a loud noise.

an addition to that would be for deaf/blind/eyeless when/ if they become an adol the survival bar will still be there. except when they are an adol/adult they will no be under to watch of a brood mother, but instead you can assign a lion to be their "caretaker" (sorta like a seeing eye dog but not)
the lion would be pretty much the same as a broodmother (no hunting) and no breeding (seeing that careing for cubs would distract them from monitoring the deaf/blind/eyeless) or alternatively the survival bar would decrease by half of what it would if the lion did not have a caretaker. ex: no caretaker -10% survival caretaker w/cubs -5% survival
the caretaker must not be too old (13 years+ maybe?) seeing that old lions require more sleep and such



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Essanay (#132617)

Impeccable
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2019-02-02 21:30:28
I would like to bring this thread back into attention.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

_ (#125883)

Resurgent
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2019-02-11 15:42:24
I'm sold, man



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

😸 Chonk 😸 (#54568)

Deathlord of the Jungle
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2019-04-09 19:20:30
Im not sure if I already posted here but I think its crazy that blind/eyeless isnt lethal but deaf is



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Emerald (#15750)

Deathlord of the Jungle
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2019-07-26 19:09:37
SUPPORT SUPPORT SUPPORT FOR ALL THE REASONS ALL THE OTHER SUPPORTERS HAVE SAID.

This is a game where we have LITERAL LION SHAMANS, LION GODS FROM CELESTIAL WORLDS, and lions with literal PINK FUR.
The "It's not realistic/It doesn't happen in the wild" excuse can honestly kiss my ass at this point, we have Lion Shamans that can talk to spirits, those don't happen in the wild either. :/
Eyeless/Blindness doesn't have your lions on a death roll at any point and they're more """realistically""" lethal than deafness is. If those aren't gonna be lethal, then deafness shouldn't be either. Or make them lethal so that it's fricking balanced.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?


Edited on 26/07/19 @ 19:10:55 by Emerald (#15750)

TheGribbler [he/him] (#216131)

Famous
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2021-01-31 10:36:42
100% support!

People are complaining and saying "omg, stop fighting the admins", like no, it's literally their job to help improve the game for everyone. Making blind/eyeless lions non-lethal, but making deaf ones lethal is so stupid. If anything, a blind lion would have a harder time surviving than a deaf one. People are all saying "it doesn't effect enough people to be important". That's not the point. Deaf lions should be able to live full lives just like blind/eyeless lions.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

WorldsWorstKnightsP (#84826)

Gorgeous
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2021-03-04 08:07:36
I absolutely agree. Deaf lions are perfectly capable of having full healthy lives and there should be no reason to make them automatically die. Love this!



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Wolf (#43806)

King of the Jungle
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2021-03-13 12:48:56
Oh, good, I was going to make a thread like this.

It would be nice to have some d/Deaf/hoh players add their thoughts? Because I'll bet they exist.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Korrie (#238126)

Demonic
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2021-08-05 08:50:53
i'd say that deaf lions shouldnt have fatal mutation status. maybe deaf lionesses cant hunt for example, but other than that... ya i support you



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Fern [side] (#163971)

Blessed
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2021-10-18 15:38:31
Support, and bringing this back up again because I realized one of the deaf death options -

"If only [NAME] had been able to hear the rattle, warning them off from the snake's nest. Alas, the warning went unheeded, and the mother rattlesnake struck swiftly."

- is not even possible because rattlesnakes are only native to the American continents, not Africa. 🤨

And even ignoring that, the rest of the lineup - shot by humans, killed by an elephant, crocodiles, or leopard - can all happen to perfectly healthy lions as well. None of those are directly caused by the mutation, so I don't think it makes sense to have this be a "lethal mutation" in contrast to all the other lethals where the physical condition is the direct cause of death.

And if "realism" is a factor then way more mutations would also have to be lethal:
-> blind/eyeless = unable to sense danger in time (exact same issue as deaf)
-> clawless = impaired self-defense
-> toothless = impaired self-defense, unable to eat normally
-> achromia = impaired vision, high chance of skin cancer from sun exposure, more noticeable target to predators/poachers
-> tailless = impaired balance, possibly spina bifida (various neurological problems, often found in manx cats)
-> folded ears = osteochondrodysplasia (painful skeletal/cartilage problems, found in all scottish fold cats)
-> dwarfism = impaired self-defense & general mobility, possibly other genetic problems
-> overgrown tongue = unable to nurse (present from birth) or eat normally

To be clear I'm not actually suggesting that all those become lethal, that would be super unpopular and even game-breaking. I'm just trying to show how the "realism" argument is inconsistent.



Hrt Icon 2 players like this post! Like?

Korrie (#238126)

Demonic
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2021-10-19 05:51:32
i have to agree with Fern! to make only deafness lethal this way would be just, you know, stupid.
i think deafness should become nonlethal, with possible downsides such as no hunting. perhaps a deaf lioness cannot hunt, but i dont see much else, if the deaf lion or lioness stays with the pride, they wouldnt be in much danger.
i will say that deaf lions shouldnt become kings, because exploring wouldnt make much sense anymore, when taking the last statement in consideration.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Mortis|x5 Ros Harle
G3 (#74427)

Bone Collector
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2021-11-17 19:03:16
This is an older thread, but I saw someone mentioning they wanted the input of someone who's HOH, and as I am I thought I'd pitch into this! I entirely support this! While I'm obviously not a lion living in the African wildlands, I'm very vigilant of my surroundings just in case I don't hear a warning (tornado sirens, car horns, fire alarms, etc) and there's no reason these mostly-anthropomorphised lions shouldn't be able to do the same. The implication that being deaf is sure to kill you has always kind of rubbed me the wrong way, especially when blind/eyeless lions arent lethal. It just feels a bit bad that deafness is singled out as lethal.

I took a hiatus from playing and recently came back to see the deafness mutation implemented, and it really grinds my gears so to speak that I can't have a lion with the same disability I have without it killing them. It never really made sense to me in the first place, and I do hope the mods consider adjusting it in the future.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?







Memory Used: 657.52 KB - Queries: 2 - Query Time: 0.00099 - Total Time: 0.00545s