POST AMENDMENT 1

If they were easy to get, then people wouldn't care about them as much and not only would the applicators themselves drop in value, but so too would the lions with the markings - because breeding them would be easier, for the sheer fact that you can apply the specific mark and then just mass breed until it passes. It would devalue the current market on LD, and I for one enjoy the challenge. Why try and make everything easy? What then, is the point of making goals appearance wise?

And I for one personally like the multiple marks - sure, multiples don't pass multiple times, but there are chances for it to show up in any of the slots it is held in.

I understand the frustration of customizing goals, but tbh, I'd hate it if it were so easy. There wouldn't be anything special about it anymore, they'd basically just be a regular marking applicator in another colour, which basically nullifies the point of them at all. Might as well just add them to the oasis applicator.

You have liked this post!

One thing that really bothers me is people conflating "random chance" and "luck" with "challenging" or "earning", "effort", etc.

Getting lucky isn't earning something. It's also not challenging and it takes little to no effort. I didn't earn or put effort into the $100 I found on the street. I got lucky.

The only thing you earned is the currency to get the item (or whatever it is) in the first place. (Usually, anyway, unless you also got that by luck). In that case, if I earned and worked my ass off to get my currency only to get dicked over by the RNG... Yeah, no. It's really not "fun" to me. Randomness is a cheap way to add "challenge".

Pet sites use the "save up currency, find potion/paint brush/whatever, buy it, happy end" formula because it works. I actually feel like I accomplished something when I buy one. I don't feel like I accomplished anything when I get dicked over by the RNG. I just feel like a jackass. (No pun intended, Jax :p) This does actually apply to base changers on LD as well; when I save up and buy an expensive base changer I really wanted for a special lioness or lion, like say Ice, it's awesome. I earned my lion's cool-looking base. This also even applies to the Feline apps as well. When I applied Feline 3 Ebony to my side account's king, it was awesome and I was over the moon about it and it felt actually rewarding when I finally got the 300 MT. Accumulating 300 MT to have an attempt at a marking I'm aiming for isn't rewarding. It makes me not want to ever use those applicators on anything.


"If they were easy to get, then people wouldn't care about them as much and not only would the applicators themselves drop in value, but so too would the lions with the markings - because breeding them would be easier, for the sheer fact that you can apply the specific mark and then just mass breed until it passes."

This literally happens every time a new marking is released, assuming it's one people can actually get hold of (i.e. Wasn't dumped on an inactive account, and also possibly that it's one people want, though usually the ones that aren't as popular still manage to spread like wildfire). Marks that are supposed to be rare and expensive tank overnight. Markings are really not hard to breed at all with the exception of Rosette, and even then, it took a huge hit after people realized they could use Gnawrocks on them.

"What then, is the point of making goals appearance wise? "

...because I like looking at them? Not everything has to be profitable, expensive, rare, or extremely hard to get to be someone's goal.

This is why I don't like breeding sims having their market heavily based on selling the creatures and why I think it's a bad idea 99% of the time. It is way, way too hard to balance without careful planning and now Lioden is in too deep to fix these kinds of issues.

It should also be kept in mind that Lioden is a game, not real life. We all know real life isn't fair. But, generally, games are meant to be a fun experience, not some kind of life lesson. I'm not saying everything should be piss-easy to get either, because challenge IS fun. But randomness is not the same thing as challenge.

You have liked this post!

I can understand where you are coming from, certainly - just to me, personally, I have a different view. I don't really see it as earning it - not unless you count the actual purchase of said expensive item - just more or less as an increased challenge. Honestly, it might be a cheap way to go about generating a challenge - but it is effective. A majority of players like to play the game for the challenge of getting the 'best' or the 'most desirable'; I for one would love to achieve breeding bases like Celestial - not just because I find it pretty (I don't really have any emotion toward it, tbh); but I want to reach that goal because it is supposedly one of the 'harder' things to achieve, therefore valuable.

If I achieve a goal such as that, then I achieve the feeling I set out to gain - which is pride and enjoyment. The fact that I can't just "get it" makes it worth the challenge, and makes that feeling of accomplishment so much greater when or if it happens. The same can be said for markings - wanting to achieve an entirely feline marked lion, for example. I've made it to penta - I'm proud of that - but I want to make it further. If I could just go to the Oasis, for example, and buy an applicator that had the marks on it and added them to my lion.. My purpose for that goal would be gone, and it isn't as much an achievement than if you had really worked toward it. The same goes for those high end applicators, imo.

For example - sure, you worked hard to get the astronomical amount of GB required to buy the Ice marking app. You're excited to apply it. Why are you excited? Because there is that random chance you might not get what you want, and the chance that it WILL is what gives the thrill.

Maybe you personally don't care about breeding goals, and just want to make your lions look cool, full-stop. That's fine, too - but to me, that is every other generic pet SIM game on the market. Easily attainable, and nothing special. I like the randomness of the applicators because of the sheer chance of failure, and that is one of the features that I find to be a massive draw card for Lioden.

Lioden isn't predictable, it is unique, and it has unique qualities - that is exactly what sets it apart, and exactly what keeps people playing. If you could just go ahead and add the marks as it suited, then you would achieve the look for your lion, and then what? You'd just keep breeding them to look that way? Or would you want to set another goal? Sure, you set another goal - just as easily attainable. All it takes is spending some money on GB, or earning it on the game - which honestly doesn't take long at all. Heck, I made 30GB in 24 hours just selling event stuff.

Predictability leads to boredom, imo, and I like the fact that Lioden keeps us guessing.

You have liked this post!

I don't actually have much to argue/debate against you because your point of view is perfectly fine :) If you enjoy the random factor, that's totally fine. Some people do, I just don't really want people to go around saying that if you don't really enjoy randomness it means you're lazy/don't want to work for something which doesn't make sense and isn't true at all is just what I'm saying (not saying you were saying that though, just making a point)

"For example - sure, you worked hard to get the astronomical amount of GB required to buy the Ice marking app. You're excited to apply it. Why are you excited? Because there is that random chance you might not get what you want, and the chance that it WILL is what gives the thrill."

This is something we'd absolutely disagree on, and I think there might be a misunderstanding here; I'm not saying all marks should be 3 GB Oasis applicator marks; some apps should be expensive and difficult to get. I just don't find potentially getting dicked over by the RNG and losing out on the GB I worked to obtain fun or exciting at all. I agree with you that it doesn't actually take too much time to accumulate a large amount of GB, but it can be drained very very quickly with expensive randomized apps, which is kind of the point here. That's why I think if it dropped the chance of getting the same marking consecutively each time an app is used would be a good happy medium; people can still enjoy a bit of the random factor, but people who don't won't get completely screwed either.

"The fact that I can't just "get it" makes it worth the challenge, and makes that feeling of accomplishment so much greater when or if it happens."

This is understandable, it's just that I don't get the same feeling of accomplishment, personally, from something random. I'd rather shell out 200 of my hard-earned GB to get a single marking I want as long as I'm guaranteed to get it than continue to spend, say, 80+ GB on a marking app that I may have to use 15 of before I even get the marking I wanted in the first place. At that point it doesn't feel like an accomplishment, it just feels like a huge waste of (possibly real, and also hard-earned) money.

I'm definitely fine with some randomness though, don't get me wrong. I just wish the odds on certain things were less... uh, unforgiving, I guess. Super Special bases have it particularly hard; I know, because I've been trying to do a few projects and only a single one has been successful (and not even 100% successful either, and it's never even given me another of its base that wasn't a Crunchy Worm clone)

You have liked this post!

Thalath pretty much said everything. Randomness has everything to do with Luck, not challenge.

Also this:

"For example - sure, you worked hard to get the astronomical amount of GB required to buy the Ice marking app. You're excited to apply it. Why are you excited? Because there is that random chance you might not get what you want, and the chance that it WILL is what gives the thrill."

Absolutely not. I didn't get a thrill every time I Appd Doubloon. I was anxious as heck and more frustrated with each failure. That's not exciting. What about having a high chance of failing after putting the work in is exciting? Please explain that logic to me, because I don't understand.

You have liked this post!

Okay but listen. Applying 15+ of an applicator and not getting what you want is fucking ridiculous and not fun. It causes anger, frustration, and a general sense of "fuck this game, this is shit". It's a 25% chance per marking, it takes less than 16 tries to breed a 25% fertility lioness 99% of the time. Fiery Unders isn't even super expensive, but imagine buying over 15 of them for 6 GB a piece, plus marking removers, and never getting the mark. That's the shit that makes me feel that it isn't even worth trying to gain anything in this game. I can't imagine spending 25+ GB per app on 15+ Dicey Ice to get, say, Crackle. It is not fun. It is not challenging. It's frustrating and disheartening and the only thing I feel when I get the mark is "JESUS FUCKING FINALLY FOR FUCK'S SAKE" and empty hate looking at my GB count.

You have liked this post!

Seriously.

The challenge is getting the currency. The reward should be the mark. The mark I want with 100% certainty, no bullshit attatched. It shouldn't be yet ANOTHER hurdle because like Typhon said, it just produces feelings of "fuck this game" and being generally cheated outta your time, effort, and money. It's not cool, LD "just being that way" and "being a bit part of the game" isn't really a justication (or if it is, it's not a good one). The game is in Beta, that means things are very much subject to change no matter how long they've been in place. Things that hurt the game and make it clunky and hard to enjoy need to be cut OUT or edited or something.

And this is one of those things. Typhon's experience is unacceptable, my experience with the Doubloon App was unaacceptable, there are several users I've seen on and offsite who have the same grievance with the Bloodbourne mark. I had to use like 8 of these things before i got my lions looking anywhere near how i wanted them to look. Once again for the people in the back: THE THING I BOUGHT WITH MY HARD EARNED CURRENCY SHOULDN'T BE GIVING ME TROUBLE. If I buy something from the store and it's not working the way I want, know what I do? Know what ANYONE does?

I take it back and get my money back.

It would be fine if they were relatively inexpensive, but they aren't so there's a problem.

You have liked this post!

But see - the point I'm trying to raise here is that while it might be bneficial to YOU to not get multiple markings does not mean it is beneficial for the entire community. Just because you don't want a double mark on your lions does not mean that someone else doesn't want a double mark. Reducing the chance of double marks would then have a negative effect for those players who DO like multiple marks.

Example - I recently applied four Bloodbourne marks to my heir. Three of the four gave me Bloodbourne Vitiligo - which I am extremely happy about! I know that my king will not pass three sets of the vitiligo mark, because multiple marks no longer pass - but it DOES increase his chances of passing it.
Triple Bloodbourne Vitiligo

Reducing the rate at which you get double marks would be beneficial toward you, but would then make it harder for players like myself, who enjoy multi-marked lions. Effectively, you are saying your preferences are more important than those of another player - and I don't mean this in a bad way, but it is what it is. By increasing the odds for your preference of NOT getting multi will decrease the odds for other players like me who WANT multi - therefore it would not be a fair change, and not fair to the community as a whole.

Just like you, I too face the odds of getting the markings I want. Using an applicator means I might not get the multi markings I want, just like it means it might give you the multi markings you DON'T want. Why should it be harder for me to achieve multi markings, just because some players don't want multi markings?

The only way to make it fair would be to make it so you choose the marking you want, but like I said - that in itself will damage the market and economy of the game. Perhaps if we had more "breed only" marks that were special, to fill that gap, it wouldn't be such a problem..

You have liked this post!

No, my problem isn't with double markings. I LOVE double markings, I wanted a double onyx rosette quad king before I found out they couldn't pass together. We're being forced to get markings we don't want, and if we get double markings in different slots, it's "well, fuck you, they're useless because they can't pass together". I'd like it all to be a "choose your own marking" typed thing. Applicator marks already have shitty prices, it's the applicator itself that it expensive, and doesn't even promise you what you want. It's an awful system.

You have liked this post!

Cala, listen. You would STILL be able to get double markings. You want doubles? Buy two applicators and PICK whichever doubles you want (although I'm willing to be that MOST of the community doesn't care for double marks). It wouldn't be a gamble. You earned it, you get it.

And good for you, you're happy. I got triple vit and I was PISSED. Chooseable marks doesn't make anything hard for you, it makes it easy. It benefits EVERYONE. And I'm not seeing how this will damage the market. One App can only give you one mark. You'd still potentially have to buy and breed to someone else if you want another mark. It's the same story with random apps, only you waste more money fucking around with their "randomness" that shouldn't be in the first place.

You have liked this post!

Yep, well I do agree that it should be an entire change rather than a percentage - if anything were to ever come of it. I do understand the frustration! I think what most people would worry about is the effect it would have on the economy - the applicator prices would definitely take a hit - which in turn could affect the rest of the market.

I think maybe, if it was possible to implement, they should make a random applicator for each marking group and then have an applicator where you choose what mark you get, much like they have in place with the RMA and Oasis Applicator. Basically make an Ice RMA and Ice Applicator, Ochre RMA, Ochre Applicator, so on and so forth? (Though then it might be a bit of an applicator heavy situation, idk).. I just feel like that would be the way around damaging the economy. The RMA version would be the cheap one, and the actual applicator would retain value. Then everyone is happy, haha!

You have liked this post!

@Jax; My confusion in relation to this came from the starter post where it mentioned an adjustment of percentages, rather than the applicator choice :)

You have liked this post!

I really don't think this would damage the economy?? If you want a quad you still have to buy 4 apps, you just don't have to waste a ton of GB trying. Apps would still retain their value.

You have liked this post!

It would be effected for that reason alone - once you've bought four, you won't need any more - therefore, not as many applicators will be required. Once you have the four you need, you no longer need to buy them - so people won't need to hoard so many to sell, because they won't be making as much profit, because they will be selling less. They are priced high because people need to buy them in high volumes to get what they want, therefore they are willing to spend that bit extra because they are sought after - if that makes sense :)

You have liked this post!

You have liked this post!