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| Posted by | -LOCKED - Community Input on Challenge/Paperclip Trades |
 Katze (#3)  
Heavenly View Forum Posts  Posted on 2022-08-12 09:33:32 |
Hi, everyone! As mentioned within August 12th's Community Update news, we are aware that part of the community dislikes challenge/paperclip trades appearing in the Trading Center. One particular topic has had a fair bit of discussion from both sides: * ⚔️TwoSwordsClash⚔️ (#122111), "Outlaw "joke" trades of 1 SB" Our stance has generally been that the Trading Center is a player-run "free market". Part of the reason for this is that you, the players, determine the value that items and other assets hold over time. Players are free to try to sell or trade their assets at whatever value they choose, and other players are free to decide whether or not they accept that value. When it comes to moderating challenge/paperclip trades, the main question is: where do we draw the line? At what value does a trade become more than just a paperclip trade? If an arbitrary value is set, then trades will simply be created at a value just above that. If it becomes a matter of simply disallowing any trades entitled "What can I get for _____?", then we essentially remove open-ended offer-based trades. We understand that a big concern is how they flood the Trading Center and push legitimate trades out of view, though we have never moderated the amount of trades any one player can post at one time, or how many of a certain type of trade can exist at the same time. As you can see, moderating these trades isn't a cut-and-dried solution, much as we wish it were. Potential Solutions * We could add the ability to conveniently and instantly hide trades under the "Recent Trades" and "Search Results" listings for trades, without needing to click to view the actual trade, and without needing to block the trade's creator. An additional "Hidden Trades" section could be added to the Trading Center interface in case a trade is hidden by mistake. * There could be an additional option to "Hide All Trades By This Player", as well. This could act as a "soft block" which only prevents you from seeing certain trades, and still allows you to interact with the trade creator. * We could implement a new Stockpile subforum category for "Challenge Trades", where players would be encouraged to advertise their challenges. Players could then set up private trades if they end up receiving a buyer for their trade, rather than publicly listing their trades in the Trading Center beforehand. The downside of this option is then moderating what does and does not belong within that subforum, needing to cancel/remove any publicly-listed challenge trades, and determining what falls under a challenge trade to begin with. We would ideally like to hear whether or not this is something you think might provide added value for you when using the Trading Center. Additionally, if you have thoughts on other possible (manageable) solutions or suggestions on how this type of system could be improved, we're open to hearing these as well. Keep in mind that any solutions tied to moderation would require hard-set definitions that not all players may see eye to eye on. To further clarify: We want your input on how exactly we rule this type of trade - where is the line? Why isn't my 1 SB trade open for any offers allowed? It's a legitimate trade, I am offering something in exchange for an offer. Why would it be considered begging or a challenge/paperclip trade? What if it was 5 SB instead of 1? 10 instead of 5? Who determines whether I'm asking to trade up by offering 1 SB for a Large Leaf? In order to moderate things like this efficiently, we need a concrete determined set of rules about what constitutes a challenge trade. That's what we need your help with. If we implement the second Trading Center idea that some people are suggesting, how do we determine that a trade in the "regular" Trading Center isn't just a misplaced challenge trade? This is the conundrum we're having. This topic will remain open for two weeks, and will be locked on Friday, August 26th, 2022. Once it is locked, our admin team will review it for potential ideas and solutions. We will post an update on the situation as soon as we are able to work one out, if one can be worked out at all—and if we decide not to pursue these trades, we will announce this as well. |
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FloofsieLlama (#269071)
Astral View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 09:57:35 |
I think a filter out option might work if it can be implemented? So we could filter out certain keywords, and this would maybe even allow the exclusion of more than just the paper clip trades, which I think would be neat.  0 players like this post! Like? |
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Zera the Goat🐐 (#211151)
Punk View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 09:57:54 |
I'd love the idea of "Hidden Trades" or the soft block option. People bothered by the challenge trades could easily hide them without taking away the option to have challenge trades. A new trade section or an "Exclude X feature/phrase" search would also be beneficial. While this forum is specifically addressing the paperclip challenge trades, I could 100% see using hidden trades and soft blocks for regular play as well. The forum option would also be great, though I am also concerned about the moderating aspect. This would add quite a bit to the moderators' plate and there is a fair bit of a grey. I could see some difficulty with "Seeing what I can get for X" or "looking for offers" since some may fall under the paperclip trend, while others don't. As long as there is an updated list of phrases that are no longer allowed in general TC/sales and would only be allowed in this new forum, players should be able to adjust. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Myriad [mostly frozen] (#76) 
View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 09:58:37 |
First of all THANK YOU so much for listening and looking into doing something about this! <3 I'm so fed up of the way these types of trades are clogging up the TC - more and more everyday, it seems like, rather than fading out. I really hope the general consensus of opinion is to make some sort of major change to improve the situation for the majority of us just trying to use the TC for actual buying/selling; and I think it must be, going by the ratio of support/no support votes here and on the main suggestion post linked. Honestly it'd be my preference to do the new forum category option and remove them from TC entirely - because I really don't think they belong in TC rather than forums (they're a 'game' ... *cough* basically begging *cough* ... not legitimate trading imo). But I do see how that's hard to moderate, and likely not worth all the additional hassle it would cause for staff. I totally get that you all have more than enough other shit to deal with! So the first two options are still a BIG improvement on the current situation - I do really like the idea of hiding/soft-blocking. I feel bad fully blocking for something like this - as the only option currently - because although these trades are a red flag to me that I probably don't want to trade with that player, it doesn't necessarily mean I have anything against communicating with them in other ways. And newbies may not understand *why* they seem to be getting blocked and ignored a lot by multiple players, if they don't connect it with the unpopularity of these challenges. So I'd definitely support a hide function and/or soft block being implemented - it'd be a massive quality of life improvement when browsing TC  0 players like this post! Like? |
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Abbey (#1)
Usual View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:01:39 |
Hey guys, I just want to clarify here - we're not asking you to choose between the options offered, though it's good to know where the preference lies. We want your input on how exactly we rule this type of trade - where is the line? Why isn't my 1SB trade open for any offers allowed? It's a legitimate trade, I am offering something in exchange for an offer. Why would it be considered begging or a challenge/paperclip trade? What if it was 5SB instead of 1? 10 instead of 5? Who determines whether I'm asking to trade up by offering 1SB for a Large Leaf? In order to moderate things like this efficiently, we need a concrete determined set of rules about what constitutes a challenge trade. That's what we need your help with. If we implement the second trading center idea that some people are suggesting, how do we determine that a trade in the "regular" trading center isn't just a misplaced challenge trade? This is the conundrum we're having. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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snowmew [G1 14BO Abyssinian] (#63212) View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:01:57 |
I really do think we should implement the hiding trades. I don't feel like begging should be promoted at all. And all the forum would do is bring the problem to another category of lioden without solving the issue at all. Half of the issue is how they clog the TC, but the other half is how players are getting away with begging for unfair trades. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Lily|5xRos G2 Ferus Inter (#200330) King of the Jungle View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:02:25 |
Short answer: Please can we get a new section for challenge/paper clip trades, like how raffles are done? If not, then I like the subform idea. Both ways, the expectation is that any “challenge” trades + “what can I get for __sb” (amount under 20sb, like the 1sb trades) would go there. Long answer: + reasoning I like the soft block more compared to a sub form. However, as the paper clip challenge catches on in popularity people will always run into new users who may be trying the challenge for the first time. This might give the downside of users who are already annoyed by them becoming even more frustrated, as it may feel like nothing has changed. Only that the frequency of the paper clip challenge has lessened a bit with every person they softblock. This also has the downside that anyone softblocked might stay softblocked forever, as people may forget to check if a user is still posting challenge trades. I feel like another section in the trade centre would be better as a long term solution. The mods won’t have to worry about looking after a whole new subform, and users who dislike the challenges can be satisfied that they won’t have to run into them if they don’t want to. The users who do challenge trades also can continue on as normal, and won’t have to worry about setting up a forms page or being soft blocked (possibly forever) by trying a new challenge. Normal trade vs challenge trade As for differentiating them, not many things sells for less than 20gb. Fodder Cubs may sell for that if very low. Feathers, rocks, nesting material etc all typically sell for more and in bundles. I think anyone offering 20sb will be getting more value in return, which is the nature of challenge trades. So I think 20gb would be a good place to differentiate a challenge trade and a normal trade? 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 12/08/22 @ 10:24:06 by Lily | Quad G2 Ferus Glass (#200330) |
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poekiajam *G1 FULL Dawn 5xROS* (#103167) Deathlord of the Jungle View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:04:49 |
if you want to draw a line i would say 100SB because of newer players. but overall i would say these kinds of trades that appear now are against the begging rule Admin Response: But where do you draw the line? When is it not begging any more? When it's 100SB? Why not 99SB? 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Dante ~ Project King [Main] (#80013) Impeccable View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:05:34 |
Abbey, to my mind, the frustrating bit becomes when it's someone actively asking to trade up. So to me, I'd say, in your example, a trade selling large leaves for offers would be fine. If someone happened to then offer - say - a gem for it, then people could still engage in these challenges but without the frustration because it's a legitimate trade. Perhaps the problem does come in the value, so maybe there should be a (low) minimum SB amount to include in a trade - maybe 10SB or something? Most players could get that in a single bar of explore energy anyway so shouldn't exclude anyone but is actually what many items are worth. For example, a single use food, etc. Admin Response: Doesn't that then restrict a free market? What if I'm a generous player, or feeling in a good mood, and want to sell food uses for 1 or 2SB each? 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Era (#277605)
Divine View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:06:27 |
I like the idea of when you make a trade in TC you pick what sort of trade it is. Like a "Looking for" section of trading and you can filter out any and all lookinf for trades if you dont want them Admin Response: How would we determine when someone has used that "type" incorrectly? 0 players like this post! Like? |
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snowmew [G1 14BO Abyssinian] (#63212) View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:06:48 |
@abbey the line should be set at where any trade that is obviously asking for a value larger than what is being offered. A lot of items have tradeable values in the monkey business. If it were a fair trade, they would have nothing to "up" their challenge with. So therefore these trades wouldn't be able to profit Edit to admin response: when the trade says "looking for (item of high value on the market) for (item worth virtually nothing) Upper or under cutting prices of items without set values (ex. Items that fluctuate on the market and aren't from oasis/explore) would not be affected. Admin Response: What is "obvious"? Where is that line drawn? Is me offering 20SB for something that is usually 30SB asking for a trade up? What about 21SB? 22? 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 12/08/22 @ 10:17:19 by snowmew [G1 Subtle 3x Ros] (#63212) |
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clip (#14162)
Sapphic View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:08:02 |
The subforum sounds like a good idea, but it also kinda brings about the question of defining a challenge trade, because not all "what can i get for x" trades are challenges, and like katze said, it would basically kill open-ended offers. In my opinion the option to hide trades (based on key title words) seems like the easiest and safest one. That way people are able to block any trades they don't want to see. Even if they are moved to the forums, there would still be players posting them in the TC because that is the natural place to post a trade, and it would become very difficult in my opinion for the mods to be able to shuffle all those trades to the forums and keep them out of the TC. I think it's ultimately up to people to cultivate their LD experience, and adding a "hide trades" option seems like the best way to appease both sides. If people are upset about the TC being flooded by challenge trades, they can simply opt out of seeing the majority of them, whereas if people want to participate in these trades or are indifferent, they can still choose to view them. Admin Response: I think the problem then comes with what if someone does a challenge trade once, but otherwise regularly uses the trading center, people who block them would miss out on legitimate trades.. although they're doing that anyway, so hmm. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Era (#277605)
Divine View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:08:21 |
And instead of doing a minimum we could do that if you are doing these sorts of trades it must start out with an item so that is it like a "Item for an item" or a "Lion for a lion" Admin Response: How do we determine what these sorts of trades are though? Do we rely on the user correctly naming/tagging their trade as such? 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Dante ~ Project King [Main] (#80013) Impeccable View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:08:46 |
@Abbey Regarding my comment, I mean in the opening trades - i.e., if you're making a trade, you have to include at least 10sb. If you're offering on other people's trades, you could continue to offer 1sb (even if an annoying lowball). if a player wanted to be generous and offer a gem and 9sb to make it down to 1sb, that would be reasonable I'd think? By the way - can I say how great it is to actually have a direct discussion with the admins on this? Thanks Abbey!  Admin Response: What if I just want to make a trade with a single leaf item with no SB amount? Does the value of the item need a minimum to be traded, or should I be allowed to trade any item? 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 12/08/22 @ 10:10:56 by Dante ~ G1 Snowflake [Main] (#80013) |
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Khajiit {G1 Leonid Splash} (#68800) Cursed View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:08:47 |
@ Abbey Well, basically any amount of sb under 100 is very easy to get just by exploring. There are times when I manage to get 300+ worth of sb from a single energy bar, by selling the food/feathers/etc. I find. Not to mention the amount you can get by hunting, buying event items (for which the currency you get BY actively exploring). And some hardcore players will want to support the site more by buying GB and getting energy boost items just for the sake of exploring :) So I would say that people who just go the whole "I am offering 1sb, offer me stuff worth more" or the "What I can get for 5sb" to be included in the paperclip or be treated as veiled begging. That of course puts the other small amount of sb trades at risk, but there is a difference between "What can I get for x" and the, for example - "Buying NCL fodder at 5sb per one" kind of trades. And that difference is the user checking tc/forums, deciding what exactly they want and then posting a trade that states what they want. To be honest any trade that is at 100sb or more that is "What could I get for that" is way better because hey, it is an amount you get by actually being active and putting work into your game instead of just rolling over, getting 20sb for it and taking 1sb from that in order to see if someone will fall for your "challenge". EDIT: I forgot to add that I am not as much of an active explorer as I used to be, due to spending 9+ hours at work these days, and yet I still manage to easily get by with what I get through explore, hunting and feeding my lions every 3 days to full so that I can sell all the extra food then. Admin Response: I think the issue here is if we're saying that they must have a minimum of 100SB, if members are still able to create trades under that, what's to stop them just not naming it a challenge trade? If we don't allow trades to be created with lower than 100SB, what about people who legitimately want to trade for a low value item? 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 12/08/22 @ 10:11:15 by Khajiit {} (#68800) |
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Era (#277605)
Divine View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:10:49 |
Thats a good point with determining if a type is incorrect. Hm we could have it so looking for trades must follow the format of "Looking for something that is of equal or similar value to whatever is being offered" Im not quite sure how we would do rules though for paperclip trades specifically though minus making it so that theres a minimum GB/SB or just banning using money alltogether Admin Response: This kind of ruling would either require moderators to keep on top of market rates for every item in the game, or require moderators to determine market values which may or may not be correct. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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