Posted by -LOCKED - Community Input on Challenge/Paperclip Trades

Katze (#3)

Heavenly
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Posted on
2022-08-12 09:33:32
Hi, everyone!

As mentioned within August 12th's Community Update news, we are aware that part of the community dislikes challenge/paperclip trades appearing in the Trading Center. One particular topic has had a fair bit of discussion from both sides:
* ⚔️TwoSwordsClash⚔️ (#122111), "Outlaw "joke" trades of 1 SB"

Our stance has generally been that the Trading Center is a player-run "free market". Part of the reason for this is that you, the players, determine the value that items and other assets hold over time. Players are free to try to sell or trade their assets at whatever value they choose, and other players are free to decide whether or not they accept that value.

When it comes to moderating challenge/paperclip trades, the main question is: where do we draw the line? At what value does a trade become more than just a paperclip trade? If an arbitrary value is set, then trades will simply be created at a value just above that. If it becomes a matter of simply disallowing any trades entitled "What can I get for _____?", then we essentially remove open-ended offer-based trades.

We understand that a big concern is how they flood the Trading Center and push legitimate trades out of view, though we have never moderated the amount of trades any one player can post at one time, or how many of a certain type of trade can exist at the same time.

As you can see, moderating these trades isn't a cut-and-dried solution, much as we wish it were.

Potential Solutions
* We could add the ability to conveniently and instantly hide trades under the "Recent Trades" and "Search Results" listings for trades, without needing to click to view the actual trade, and without needing to block the trade's creator. An additional "Hidden Trades" section could be added to the Trading Center interface in case a trade is hidden by mistake.
* There could be an additional option to "Hide All Trades By This Player", as well. This could act as a "soft block" which only prevents you from seeing certain trades, and still allows you to interact with the trade creator.
* We could implement a new Stockpile subforum category for "Challenge Trades", where players would be encouraged to advertise their challenges. Players could then set up private trades if they end up receiving a buyer for their trade, rather than publicly listing their trades in the Trading Center beforehand. The downside of this option is then moderating what does and does not belong within that subforum, needing to cancel/remove any publicly-listed challenge trades, and determining what falls under a challenge trade to begin with.

We would ideally like to hear whether or not this is something you think might provide added value for you when using the Trading Center. Additionally, if you have thoughts on other possible (manageable) solutions or suggestions on how this type of system could be improved, we're open to hearing these as well. Keep in mind that any solutions tied to moderation would require hard-set definitions that not all players may see eye to eye on.

To further clarify: We want your input on how exactly we rule this type of trade - where is the line? Why isn't my 1 SB trade open for any offers allowed? It's a legitimate trade, I am offering something in exchange for an offer. Why would it be considered begging or a challenge/paperclip trade? What if it was 5 SB instead of 1? 10 instead of 5? Who determines whether I'm asking to trade up by offering 1 SB for a Large Leaf?

In order to moderate things like this efficiently, we need a concrete determined set of rules about what constitutes a challenge trade. That's what we need your help with.

If we implement the second Trading Center idea that some people are suggesting, how do we determine that a trade in the "regular" Trading Center isn't just a misplaced challenge trade? This is the conundrum we're having.

This topic will remain open for two weeks, and will be locked on Friday, August 26th, 2022. Once it is locked, our admin team will review it for potential ideas and solutions. We will post an update on the situation as soon as we are able to work one out, if one can be worked out at all—and if we decide not to pursue these trades, we will announce this as well.



This suggestion has 519 supports and 40 NO supports.



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Edited on 12/08/22 @ 10:03:48 by Katze (#3)

Valentine (Side) (#181406)

Bone Collector
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Posted on
2022-08-17 23:27:31
Honestly, after going over all of this again, I don't think this is a big enough problem that we need to be this level of concerned about it. It's too hard to pin down exactly where the line is between challenge trades and open-offer trades, and while they're mildly annoying, it's not like it's destroying the TC.



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Servmouche (#221573)

Total Chad
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Posted on
2022-08-18 09:13:56
exactly. i think it’s really gotten out of hand with how much people are annoyed by these trades . they don’t really affect me and clearly other players either. i’m also one of the people confused as to what a support or don’t support may mean on this



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[△] Nadir (#108458)

Prophet
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Posted on
2022-08-18 10:28:16
Still think an easy solution would be making a forum for all kinds of challenges and gifting/trading games.
5f510d30ea94889cbed14935216a8897.png
Because it'd also give an easy zone for people to find breeding challenges, a place for all those december challenge threads, and a spot for things like the 'Gifting for the Rich' threads.



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🥝 Kiwi | Lifelong
Hiatus 🥝 (#251788)

Sapphic
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Posted on
2022-08-18 10:41:11
I know I'm kind of a small voice, however I think that if we are to keep these trades up, we could;
1) Create a subfolder within the TC for Challenge trades.
Similar to how you can choose private or public trades as an option when creating a trade, there should be a small checkmark there for "Challenge Trades" allowing it to automatically flow into that subfolder. With this, allowing players to hide these trades would remove them from the MAIN Trading center trades. It is up until they go to the Challenge Trades tab they can see those trades.

2) Like many people have suggested, allowing it to be a category in Chatter. While it fits in many places, this would shift the focus on so many things in Chatter. See challenges could fit into Games! However Games fit into contests, and challenges easily. But so does the paperclip trades! Wouldn't it be different to just say it's a contest in the first place? Because technically- it is. It allows trading between players, whether it be lions, items, beetles, etc. And it also (trailing off. I'll edit this with the final version of my thoughts when I'm clear headed bc none of this makes any sense even to me lol)

3) just leave them! Easy peasy! They are legitimate trades and don't violate anything



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Catalina (The Rat
Queen) (#179820)

Heavenly
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Posted on
2022-08-18 11:15:52
@Kiwi
I think 1 and 3 would be the best options!!

Especially 1, I feel like that would be a good compromise between both sides of the argument!! :D



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Sheep (#280926)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2022-08-18 11:43:28
A solution that instantly came to my mind is adding another section to the trading center called Paperclip or something along those lines, just like how there are sections for items, lions, beetles, etc. I don't think people should be punished for putting out a trade saying what can I get for X.

Another solution that might work is adding a button when creating a trade that will put it into a paperclip category and then having an option while searching for trades to hide all the trades tagged as paperclip trades. I know the wording is vague but the button would work like the buyout only option but for paperclip trades.



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Raina Chiaki (#54236)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2022-08-19 13:34:55
Personally fond of the forum idea, even with the issues that may present themselves, or the above idea of a separate trading section selection.



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Shadow (#292250)

Fearsome
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Posted on
2022-08-19 20:30:00
Okay. I joined a few months ago, but have learned decently quick on things. I have seen the “1sb to 100gb” trades and admittedly ignored them simply because I didn’t understand why they were telling the world that and instead just do the buying and selling to get up to that point. Now that I’ve read a ton, what feels like a ton, of comments and other people’s solutions to what they view as a problem, I’m coming to mostly understand what a paperclip or challenge trade is. To the admins, I’m sorry but that seems exhausting to read every little bit and I applaud you all. Thank you!

I personally have not had any annoyance with them because I filter search what I need anyways. But when I do feel like browsing, I go to the currency page to see what people are trying to get rid of. I think a separate section like how “currency” is would make the grumps happy while still leaving everyone in the tc. A check box while making the trade would put the people wanting to do those types of trades able to freely go there and making a similar “hide trades from that section” box, similar to the “hide custom decors” list from the “item” section, available at the beginning of the “view trades” in tc. However, for deciding who go their, leave it up to the people. Self regulation. That the basis around tc and branch sales is free market, right?

I’m not completely sure this would count as an example, but I was at one point thinking of making a trade of 150sb for junk herbs that people dont want. I personally almost always leave my trades up for discussion of people offering up what they deem as fair because I’m always up for bartering. If someone had more than 150sb worth that they wanted to trade me, I’d hope they would pm for a private trade with a bigger amount of items that I would then give a bigger amount of sb, or gb depending. Sorry to clog the inputs to this page, but would that be considered a challenge or paperclip trade or an open trade?

I personally think complete banning would both be ineffective and rude to players who do want to give things to other players, even if at times it looks like begging. But having a forum/sub forum for the challenge games might still be a good idea because then you have a decent sized spot for people to go all out and not be bothered by the ones that would most likely be pming them and saying “hey, this ain’t cool and take down you trade in tc. You’re clogging the tc with an illegitimate trade.”



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Autmn (#222164)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2022-08-19 21:48:03
I think adding a feature to filter out certain words in the trading center could be a happy medium. Making a box to put "Exclude searches with: ____" in the trading center. This would be a good way to clear these from your search results, for this challenge, and for other uses.



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SpaceAce (#168931)

Lone Wanderer
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Posted on
2022-08-23 19:29:43
Honestly my first thought was just another trade channel similar to the lions/items/ect channels.
Or, perhaps a checkbox when creating a trade "is this a challenge trade/paperclip trade/ect" that would mark it as such (similar to marking it as a buyout only trade). Then giving players the option to filter out any trades marked " challenge trade/paperclip trade/ect", maybe via dropdown menu? for example
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[△] Nadir (#108458)

Prophet
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Posted on
2022-08-23 19:31:37
That would also be a very simple solution.



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🧋Blue🧋 (#248397)

Heavenly
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Posted on
2022-08-23 19:47:29
I think the last solution



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