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| Posted by | -LOCKED - Community Input on Challenge/Paperclip Trades |
 Katze (#3)  
Heavenly View Forum Posts  Posted on 2022-08-12 09:33:32 |
Hi, everyone! As mentioned within August 12th's Community Update news, we are aware that part of the community dislikes challenge/paperclip trades appearing in the Trading Center. One particular topic has had a fair bit of discussion from both sides: * ⚔️TwoSwordsClash⚔️ (#122111), "Outlaw "joke" trades of 1 SB" Our stance has generally been that the Trading Center is a player-run "free market". Part of the reason for this is that you, the players, determine the value that items and other assets hold over time. Players are free to try to sell or trade their assets at whatever value they choose, and other players are free to decide whether or not they accept that value. When it comes to moderating challenge/paperclip trades, the main question is: where do we draw the line? At what value does a trade become more than just a paperclip trade? If an arbitrary value is set, then trades will simply be created at a value just above that. If it becomes a matter of simply disallowing any trades entitled "What can I get for _____?", then we essentially remove open-ended offer-based trades. We understand that a big concern is how they flood the Trading Center and push legitimate trades out of view, though we have never moderated the amount of trades any one player can post at one time, or how many of a certain type of trade can exist at the same time. As you can see, moderating these trades isn't a cut-and-dried solution, much as we wish it were. Potential Solutions * We could add the ability to conveniently and instantly hide trades under the "Recent Trades" and "Search Results" listings for trades, without needing to click to view the actual trade, and without needing to block the trade's creator. An additional "Hidden Trades" section could be added to the Trading Center interface in case a trade is hidden by mistake. * There could be an additional option to "Hide All Trades By This Player", as well. This could act as a "soft block" which only prevents you from seeing certain trades, and still allows you to interact with the trade creator. * We could implement a new Stockpile subforum category for "Challenge Trades", where players would be encouraged to advertise their challenges. Players could then set up private trades if they end up receiving a buyer for their trade, rather than publicly listing their trades in the Trading Center beforehand. The downside of this option is then moderating what does and does not belong within that subforum, needing to cancel/remove any publicly-listed challenge trades, and determining what falls under a challenge trade to begin with. We would ideally like to hear whether or not this is something you think might provide added value for you when using the Trading Center. Additionally, if you have thoughts on other possible (manageable) solutions or suggestions on how this type of system could be improved, we're open to hearing these as well. Keep in mind that any solutions tied to moderation would require hard-set definitions that not all players may see eye to eye on. To further clarify: We want your input on how exactly we rule this type of trade - where is the line? Why isn't my 1 SB trade open for any offers allowed? It's a legitimate trade, I am offering something in exchange for an offer. Why would it be considered begging or a challenge/paperclip trade? What if it was 5 SB instead of 1? 10 instead of 5? Who determines whether I'm asking to trade up by offering 1 SB for a Large Leaf? In order to moderate things like this efficiently, we need a concrete determined set of rules about what constitutes a challenge trade. That's what we need your help with. If we implement the second Trading Center idea that some people are suggesting, how do we determine that a trade in the "regular" Trading Center isn't just a misplaced challenge trade? This is the conundrum we're having. This topic will remain open for two weeks, and will be locked on Friday, August 26th, 2022. Once it is locked, our admin team will review it for potential ideas and solutions. We will post an update on the situation as soon as we are able to work one out, if one can be worked out at all—and if we decide not to pursue these trades, we will announce this as well. |
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[△] Nadir (#108458)
Prophet View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 08:19:18 |
I would love that, especially if Chat extended to Giveaways, being unable to hit 'claim' on trades. I've had people act excited to be given pretty lions before only to mulch them and I would love being able to block them from hitting 'claim' on my give-aways, rather than fully block them.  0 players like this post! Like? |
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Nameko (Ebony RLC) (#214773)
View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 08:24:06 |
I absolutely agree with what Nadir said  (@Knightmare) Rather than aggressively targeting those who are giving useful and helpful suggestions to the thread, I hope users can see both sides of the issue. The fact that this thread was created and this has been a rising issue shows that these "challenges" have been disrupting enough to cause negative feedback. Of course, I completely understand that some players have actually made progress through these challenges, and as I have stated before, a separate forum would solve the issue almost flawlessly. These trades could be created privately after being discussed on threads under the separate forum, so that TC is not clogged, and players can trade effectively. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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🐧Laurel [G1 Magpie] 🫐 (#65209)
View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 09:55:19 |
Given you can search for a specific item or filter by trade value I see no reason to ban or moderate these trades. People can buy and sell whatever they want for whatever the parties think is appropriate. If not, one solution might be to simply have a "at least, no more than, exactly" value for a trade as a search criteria, like for stats on lion search. If someone wants to browse and isn't looking for a specific item they could just say "show only items worth at least x SB" to avoid 1sb etc nonsense trades. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Khajiit {G1 Leonid Splash} (#68800) Cursed View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 10:13:56 |
@Penguin🇺🇦Clean G2StellarE (#65209) For most of us it's not the fact that it's a 1sb trade and more the fact that under the guise of a challenge people actively beg, by going "Offer MORE than this is worth", meaning that they know they are offering way too little. And that means they know they are treading on that thin thin line between actively begging and veiled begging. So, if the challenge is to be left on the site - let it be left in a subforum specifically for it and nothing else and OUT of the Trading Center. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Flower_of_the_Sun (#36232)
King of the Jungle View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 10:29:41 |
Ooh, I really like the option of having different block options, especially a giveaway chat one. I dislike the idea of blocking people entirely, I've never done it on any site, but I have a small list of people I don't want to give away lions to, because when I gave them in the past they were immediately put up for sale or foddered. But then the problem is, there's no room on the message to say "I reserve the right to bypass your claim based on past experiences", so if I just say "First claim" and they claim, what do I do? 0 players like this post! Like? |
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🎃 Jen O'Lantern 🎃 (#177530)
View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 10:34:37 |
This topic isnt about why they should be dealt with, but rather how to deal with them in a way that will make the most people happy & fairly treated so I'm putting my personal reasoning behind spoilers for those who care. If this doesnt belong, let me know and I can remove it, Katze & co. At the end of the day, for those who want to run these trades as a legitimate game/challenge, and not a way to arbitrarily get something for nothing, a forum thread would be a more organized, easily followable chain from the starting point to the end of the challenge. Moderating this way wouldnt block the trades from happenin, simply restrict them to private pre-arranged trades and would probably be beneficial for both sides of the discussion in the long run. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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🌑 Night Moon 🌑 (#307346)
Heartbreaker View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 10:51:27 |
If it's a challenge or fun game, there's no reason it wouldn't belong in the forum for games and challenges. I think that would work better than any blocking option bc they'll just reword and relist and redo on tc to loophole the invisibility of the trade. If the main complaint is getting it off tc, but not banning the practice entirely, the forum does that. They can still have the challenge and the tc stays clear of what is essentially, begging. Because it is. Asking for something of higher value out right is begging. No one is giving me a mazarati for a penny, and no one is trading a tigon for 1 sb... People work extremely hard and take a lot of pride in their hybrids, rare apps, and most anything worth any kind of value. I feel these trades are ways to ask for those things without any of the work and full reliance on the kindness of others. Obviously, since this topic was posted and overwhelmingly supported in moderation of some sort, a lot of the trades have stopped OR been reworded exactly as people have assumed would happen with a block option. My vote is for it to be taken to a sub forum. This allows members to flag the ones in tc for being misplaced just like anything else and still gives the people who want to do it, somewhere to go. Do I think this will likely mean these trades are ignored and eventually kill the trend? Sure, but that's probably for the best. Veiled begging is still begging. If your trade isn't getting traction or offers it probably wasn't a very fair trade to begin with. So if your aversion to the forum is about it not being offered on, low traffic or getting what ever it is you're wanting for the little bit of nothing that should kinda tell you exactly why people are ready to see it moderated out and away from tc all together. 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 14/08/22 @ 10:55:16 by 🌑 Night Moon 🌑 (#307346) |
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NSH (G1 Goldenrod RLC) (#14870)
Lone Wanderer View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 10:53:23 |
The subforum idea and regulating the trades to private only seems like the cleanest method of dealing with it. Trade up challenges are supposed to be actually challenging in nature. It's not about casting out as many nets as you possibly can and hoping something sticks, it's about negotiation and management. Taking something small and turning it into something bigger by taking the time to actually work at it. Granted the public trades themselves don't personally annoy me because you don't even notice them unless you're not searching for specific things and only searching generally (why) but something that is reportedly so common that it clogs the TC should probably be reigned in a little bit on that point alone. If you were interested in actually doing a challenge, restriction to private trades doesn't affect your challenge in any meaningful way and the subforum would allow for negotiations, discussions and collaborations. 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 14/08/22 @ 10:54:12 by Frumpkin (#14870) |
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Shadow (Main) (#73284)
Maneater View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 10:55:02 |
My worries are that players may start flagging trades that have a low amount of currency and are just looking for offers, but don't stat what they want in return. Like lets say I put up a trade for 1 Gb and am wanting to get offers. Well someone could come and flag and state that I am doing the challenge trade when in reality I am not. So for now I am going to have to say either leave it, soft block or set up a New TC area. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Khajiit {G1 Leonid Splash} (#68800) Cursed View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 11:22:54 |
This is why the forum is a good choice there, Shadow. It will still keep the 1GB trades in the TC, as 1GB is not low. It's 1GB. The challenges start with 1sb or with the whole "Offer equal/HIGHER value". If you put up a trade with 1GB and just go "Looking for fair offers/Looking for offers" you are not doing what is called veiled begging - you are genuinely looking for offers aka the trade is not reportable. And if someone reports it - mods will be able to easily asses that hey, you are not doing a challenge/it's not the 1sb "joke" or "challenge" trade since hey, once again, 1GB is worth a bit more than 1sb and you stated you are looking for offers. The challenges and joke trades are what is getting on everyone's nerves by clogging the TC, it's why we'd like it moved to forums where the games themselves have their place and this is just that - a form of a game. And it will allow people to discuss, put up offers, put up private trades and keep track of the challenge, to see the progress the person has. And will also be cleaner, by allowing one thread per person, meaning that you won't see 10+ "1sb to x" trades posted by a single person, which is the biggest factor in clogging up TC. EDIT: I went to the tc to see if anyone of the people I didn't block in order to not have tc spammed for me posted the trades, found one within seconds, checked for the ID, and lo and behold: 5 trades with the same content/title from the SAME person, ID and other trades of theirs removed to not throw hounds at them. 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 14/08/22 @ 11:29:18 by Khajiit {} (#68800) |
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Shadow (Main) (#73284)
Maneater View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 11:30:53 |
that's the thing. I have seen both 1 SB and 1 Gb as paper clip/challenge trades. But moving it to forums is a good idea, but at the same time, mods would have to make the trades a banned thing and reportable. Which then any player could have a bad day and just start reporting any trade they see as a Challenge/Paper Clip trade. I am just worried about those players who don't know what they want and just want offers. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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🌑 Night Moon 🌑 (#307346)
Heartbreaker View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 11:33:42 |
I feel that the mods are pretty competent and can fairly easily discern between the challenge trades or a legitimate trade offer. They're pretty smart cookies. So even if one person has a terrible day and decided to make it everyone's problem, I'm sure the mods would be able to handle it with grace. They usually do ♥. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Shadow (Main) (#73284)
Maneater View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 11:41:00 |
Yes they can, but it is also best to remember that even the mods can make a mistake. What I am talking about is that if someone has a bad day and reports all the trades they deem "Challenge/Paper Clip/Jokes" then we could have a super big issue. Mods will have to sort through several reports, can be up to 100 or more reports a day. Would that be a good thing for mods, when there are other things that need to be handled? Would they have to have a set number of mods dedicated to just handling the Trade Center reports? Or could it take days for them to get to those reports and have a back log of reports to handle. I still think that a dedicated Trade Center area would be the best plus having the sub forum. That way it can be done on both still. The way I was thinking is that instead of having a report button, a flag button to have the trade looked at and moved to the correct area of the TC. And if a player continuously uses the wrong Trace Center area, they could get a message/short block of using the TC. That way it could serve as a reminder that they need to use the correct area of the TC. Yes it can be done, just like any other type of ban. Forum Ban/Chat Ban, works in the same way. 0 players like this post! Like? |
Mad Hyena (#29080)
Necromancer View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 11:52:04 |
Shadow (Main) (#73284), there's a good reason not to do that for person having a bad day, because somebody reporting a huge amoung of trades at once for no reason, is bound to get in trouble with the Mods themselves! And its not really a "serious" concern because, well, someone having a bad day might already just report other trades for other reasons?.. But they're not doing it.  Person doing excessive reports for no reason is really quickly going to be in trouble, themselves. That's really a "once in 10 years" kind of thing, it most certainly wont be a big issue because of how easy it is to track for Mods, and getting a warning yourself for abusing report system for no reason. 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 14/08/22 @ 11:53:34 by Mad Hyena (#29080) |
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🎃 Jen O'Lantern 🎃 (#177530)
View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 11:55:40 |
As things stand someone could have a bad day and flag them all as begging or breaking rule 1.22 (Do not use game features for anything other than they are intended for) or even rule 3.4 (Any group collaborations (e.g. in clans, or member partnerships) must be mutually beneficial for each member involved.). Theyre not currently considered a breach of these rules and so mods act accordingly. If said player was being particularly disruptive they themselves would get a correction or warning and the issue is solved. Redefining/adding rules would not disrupt this process :) And at the end of the day, all moderator decisions can be contested if a mistake does occur and things rectified accordingly. 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 14/08/22 @ 11:57:41 by 🦜 Jenday 🦜 Main (#177530) |
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