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| Posted by | -LOCKED - Community Input on Challenge/Paperclip Trades |
 Katze (#3)  
Heavenly View Forum Posts  Posted on 2022-08-12 09:33:32 |
Hi, everyone! As mentioned within August 12th's Community Update news, we are aware that part of the community dislikes challenge/paperclip trades appearing in the Trading Center. One particular topic has had a fair bit of discussion from both sides: * ⚔️TwoSwordsClash⚔️ (#122111), "Outlaw "joke" trades of 1 SB" Our stance has generally been that the Trading Center is a player-run "free market". Part of the reason for this is that you, the players, determine the value that items and other assets hold over time. Players are free to try to sell or trade their assets at whatever value they choose, and other players are free to decide whether or not they accept that value. When it comes to moderating challenge/paperclip trades, the main question is: where do we draw the line? At what value does a trade become more than just a paperclip trade? If an arbitrary value is set, then trades will simply be created at a value just above that. If it becomes a matter of simply disallowing any trades entitled "What can I get for _____?", then we essentially remove open-ended offer-based trades. We understand that a big concern is how they flood the Trading Center and push legitimate trades out of view, though we have never moderated the amount of trades any one player can post at one time, or how many of a certain type of trade can exist at the same time. As you can see, moderating these trades isn't a cut-and-dried solution, much as we wish it were. Potential Solutions * We could add the ability to conveniently and instantly hide trades under the "Recent Trades" and "Search Results" listings for trades, without needing to click to view the actual trade, and without needing to block the trade's creator. An additional "Hidden Trades" section could be added to the Trading Center interface in case a trade is hidden by mistake. * There could be an additional option to "Hide All Trades By This Player", as well. This could act as a "soft block" which only prevents you from seeing certain trades, and still allows you to interact with the trade creator. * We could implement a new Stockpile subforum category for "Challenge Trades", where players would be encouraged to advertise their challenges. Players could then set up private trades if they end up receiving a buyer for their trade, rather than publicly listing their trades in the Trading Center beforehand. The downside of this option is then moderating what does and does not belong within that subforum, needing to cancel/remove any publicly-listed challenge trades, and determining what falls under a challenge trade to begin with. We would ideally like to hear whether or not this is something you think might provide added value for you when using the Trading Center. Additionally, if you have thoughts on other possible (manageable) solutions or suggestions on how this type of system could be improved, we're open to hearing these as well. Keep in mind that any solutions tied to moderation would require hard-set definitions that not all players may see eye to eye on. To further clarify: We want your input on how exactly we rule this type of trade - where is the line? Why isn't my 1 SB trade open for any offers allowed? It's a legitimate trade, I am offering something in exchange for an offer. Why would it be considered begging or a challenge/paperclip trade? What if it was 5 SB instead of 1? 10 instead of 5? Who determines whether I'm asking to trade up by offering 1 SB for a Large Leaf? In order to moderate things like this efficiently, we need a concrete determined set of rules about what constitutes a challenge trade. That's what we need your help with. If we implement the second Trading Center idea that some people are suggesting, how do we determine that a trade in the "regular" Trading Center isn't just a misplaced challenge trade? This is the conundrum we're having. This topic will remain open for two weeks, and will be locked on Friday, August 26th, 2022. Once it is locked, our admin team will review it for potential ideas and solutions. We will post an update on the situation as soon as we are able to work one out, if one can be worked out at all—and if we decide not to pursue these trades, we will announce this as well. |
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Dakota (#61301)
Renowned View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-13 16:37:08 |
I had a lot of spare time so personally, I ended up blocking anyone I saw doing these trades, it helped unclog the TC and sales chat a bit for me but they just keep popping up  0 players like this post! Like? |
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🎃 Jen O'Lantern 🎃 (#177530)
View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-13 16:39:14 |
@Dakota, I did the same a while back and it helped for about a week  Its why I think player specific blocking of trades just isnt a viable option 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Flower_of_the_Sun (#36232)
King of the Jungle View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-13 22:24:15 |
Looking at TC now I'm just... not seeing the clogging that so many people are talking about. Even going to the currency section (which I remember people seeing that area specifically was clogged), it's like 2-5 of those type trades on a page of 30. That just... doesn't constitute a clog to me. It feels more like people are just annoyed to see any at all because they consider it begging. Which on that note, yeah I agree that the ones specifically saying they'll only accept an offer of more value are questionable. But I think a lot of others are just doing it for fun. They're not trying to scam anyone. And even the ones who outright ask for something of more value.... that doesn't truly constitute a scam. A scam implies tricking someone out of their money or into thinking something is more valuable than it's worth. If you offer 1gb on a 1sb trade, it's unlikely that's because you think the trade is actually worth 1gb. It doesn't really seem to me that there's really that many that people can't simply ignore them if they annoy them. But that being said, I think the hiding the trades option is a good solution because then the people annoyed by it can more easily ignore it. (Even better if, like some have suggested, there was an easy way to omit certain phrases from your search.) Full disclosure of possible bias here. Yeah, I tried/am trying this challenge myself. I saw a thread a while ago and thought it sounded fun, then had the luck to be reminded of it at the beginning of it and start mine right as the whole craze started and people got annoyed with it. The one I joined actually had rules against telling people what you were doing. The challenge was you just put the trade out there and see what the best offer you can get is. (Which I don't know if people would see this as more deceitful or see it as a positive thing as less beggy, because you're simply offering an asset, not telling anyone it's for a challenge or asking them to offer more than it's worth). TLDR: For my actual vote on the options, see the bolded section. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Grookey [G2 5K Ferus Haze RLC] (#170712) Maneater View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-13 22:45:24 |
While I will admit that I haven't seen many of the 1sb/paperclip trades over the past few days, I feel like a ton of people stopped making them in response to this topic being discussed. Whether it is due to embarrassment and/or not wanting it to seem like there's a ton of them in order to keep it from being against the rules I'm unsure, but just because I haven't seen it over two days doesn't mean I haven't been seeing it for the last 6 months. I'm also afraid that if nothing is done these trades will absolutely flood the TC again and I'm just not looking forward to that. I don't want to block a ton of people, I would just really prefer they either have their own separate section where I don't have to see them, or a subforum where again, I don't have to see them clogging up the TC. To me, it's begging, and not even thinly veiled and I don't think it should be allowed as begging is against the rules.  0 players like this post! Like? |
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[△] Nadir (#108458)
Prophet View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-13 22:48:56 |
Scam isn't the correct word, no. Scam implies that a user is being dishonest about something. If, for example, they say, "Send me your Leopon and I will breed her, nest her and IBF her then send her back" and they keep saying they 'forgot' every time you ask, that's a scam. They aren't fulfilling their end of the negotiations. Clogging also isn't the correct word. You wanna talk clogs? 99999 SB listings on branches. For me personally, it's more about users having found a way to skirt the rules. It's begging, panhandling, asking for things of value for free, and being underhanded about the purpose of what they're doing. 1 SB is effectively free. This is functionally a bunch of users asking for free shit. Ergo, it's only just barely skirting the "Don't ask for free items" rule. They've found a loophole. That's my issue. I personally don't notice the trades crop up much because I rarely scroll trades. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Flower_of_the_Sun (#36232)
King of the Jungle View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 00:28:14 |
What I do wonder is, do people see a difference between starting with 1sb or say, starting with a small item.? Like in my mind a small item is more in the spirit of the real life challenge it's based on, but that's just a personal opinion. That's why when I did it, I started with a flamingo feather. Small, very, very cheap but still something someone might go to the tc looking for. (And I started with something virtually worthless not because I was trying to get stuff for free, but because that's the whole idea of the challenge, to start with something worthless and see where you get. And that's the goal for me... to see where I get.) It's an interesting exercise in how people assign different values to things. (Ex. to someone looking for an amusement item, a flamingo feather is the same as a nightjar feather, to someone looking to craft the flamingo feather decor, it's worth more.) But I wouldn't support a rule saying "you can do the challenge with a small item, but 1sb is banned" because that gets into the whole "Where do you draw the line?" thing. And it's not like there's a way to moderate who's doing it to get free stuff, and who's doing it for fun either. I'm not opposed to the idea of a separate "Challenge TC" either, even if in my mind, the true spirit of the challenge is people aren't supposed to be making you offers to help you with the challenge, you're supposed to seek people offering because they genuinely want what you're offering. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Nameko (Haze RLC) (#214770)
View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 04:02:49 |
This is an add-on to my post on page 8. I personally don't think simply "hiding" would work very well. Currently, many of these challenge trades have disappeared from TC, most likely due to the discussion of the issue. For a moment, the problem seemed to have solved itself, as there was less clogging and I could browse TC for fun again, without such trades popping up constantly. This is what many other players have noticed as well. However, when I clicked into TC, I had seen a trade containing an average explore item, and while it was labeled as the item's name, the description still stated something along the lines of "of equal or higher value". Although this is logical and is what most trades are looking for, it is still part of the whole paperclip challenge. I confirmed my theory by searching for the user's ID, and sure enough the user had created multiple trades stating that they specifically want offers that are of "equal or higher" value. This included 1SB trades. Disguised challenge trades can not be avoided by the filtering option, or the hiding option. Therefore, I would again come to the conclusion of creating a separate forum for these paperclip challenges. I understand that this challenge has led to many relatively new players to "achieve their dreams", and I myself have even considered joining in, although I had chosen not to in the end. Unfortunately, many of these challenge trades have taken advantage of the overall kind and helpful Lioden community. A separate forum would not only unclog TC, but also allow for players to continue trading up, and perhaps ultimately reach their goals. In such a manner, users who wish not to see these trades would be able to avoid them. This would greatly benefit the community, and all the players can get what they want. 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 14/08/22 @ 04:11:30 by 🌠 Lady Luck [Full Cele] (#214770) |
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Thalassa (#8567)
Phoenix View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 05:22:58 |
I believe that the separate forum/ TC category would be the best solution to this problem, as long as they don't appear in the Recent Activity/ Recent topics. This way, people who want to take part in this "challenge" can still do so, while those who don't want to see it, won't miss out on legitimate trades. I do enjoy browsing TC from time to time and I believe that the first two solutions, while viable, would restrict my browsing habits. That being said, I am surprised that these trades aren't handled as begging. Low amount of SB and/or junk items that can't even be used in crafting effectively have no value. Couple that with people that ask for items that have value/ larger amounts of SB, that's begging that's barely being veiled :/ Taking advantage of someone's generosity has always been one of my pet peeves and it always irks me when I come across this "challenge", no matter the site I'm on in. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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♥ pizza boy (#180419)
View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 06:00:59 |
having a section for them seems counterproductive encouraging people to make these trades which encourages begging behaviour imo 0 players like this post! Like? |
Mad Hyena (#29080)
Necromancer View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 06:08:03 |
If there's a forum section and it wont be allowed on the trading centre, it wont encourage begging behavior.  If it will be a forum game, that's not allowed to be posted in trades and can only be done through a forum game, it will become something that takes work and dedication to maintain; which I feel would scare away beggars and people just looking for a quick gain. People who want a challange, wont be put down by having to do a little more work to do their paperclip! That's why I feel treating the paperclips as Forum Games not as trades is the best solution.But I feel special trading centre section will NOT help; it will only produce more confusion. People will mistake the two and keep posting wrong things in both sections, people WILL keep posting paperclips in normal trades and newbies will be posting normal trades in paperclip section, mistaking it for normal trades. That wont help at all, and only create more work for the mods needing to moderate if trades fit for the section or not! 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 14/08/22 @ 06:09:02 by Mad Hyena (#29080) |
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claire [side] (#187131)
View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 06:10:09 |
I wouldn't be encouraging them, per say, but it would give players a designated space to do this challenge if they so please! I also agree that a separate forum, would be best for these challenges because it doesn't outright ban them, it just creates a designated space for them, so the people who want to see them can, and the people who don't want to see them, don't have to. 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 14/08/22 @ 06:10:27 by persephone (#187131) |
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☠Panthera☠ (G1 RA ) (#280876) View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 07:21:36 |
so now we are discriminating against our fellow players because SOME people dont like certain trades ???? worry about your trades not what someone else has posted-( if your looking for specific items, there is filters to block out most everything except what your searching for learn to use it!!!! or simply search for the specific item, everybody has a right to use the trade center whether you like the trade or not) if you gonna do something about these trades then do the same for overpriced goods,(cotton root bark for 5 gbs lol), almost rlc lions (it either is a clone 100% or it is not a clone), trying to dictate how someone else wants to play a game sure does say alot about this community as a whole, DIVIDED - 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Mad Hyena (#29080)
Necromancer View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 08:01:35 |
Knightmare, its more towards the wording than actual trades. Its against the rules to ask for free stuff like "Give me things for free!" BUT its (currently) fine to put 1 SB in a trade and ask for something worth more than that as a "challange". This very thin line between rule-forbidden begging and the paperclip trades being on the very border of it is what's making some people uncomfortable about them. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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[△] Nadir (#108458)
Prophet View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 08:07:33 |
Knightmare [Gen 3 Prismatic] (#280876) :: Rather than the knee-jerk reaction, it would be good to fully read the post above, and what we're saying. Most of us don't want to ban the trades outright. We just want regulation. 1 SB trades for 'item worth or greater' unfortunately is a loophole to get around the 'no begging for free assets' rule. Users are also concerned about the abundance of these trades clogging the trade center - which apparently they have in the past. They are asking for a place for solely these trades. The aggression is wholly unwarranted when this issue skirts rule-breaks and users are actually advocating a way to give these trades their own space. Lioden has a lot of problems, but this is one of the most calm discussions on a divisive topic I have seen. Give the users here some credit for trying to see both sides, please. That aside, I would be in favor of a forum for these trades to take place, where users can curate threads to keep track of their progress easily. But I still think exclusion fields for searches would be useful for the site as a whole. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Mad Hyena (#29080)
Necromancer View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 08:16:55 |
Soft-blocking overall could be a good direction for the blocking system to go - not just about trades, but maybe break the whole blocking system into tickable options that you can tick/untick based on how "fully" you want to block the person. I feel it'd be a wasted effort to "just" code in a separate blocking system for trades, when it'd work a lot better to rework the entire blocking system - then it would be a complex solution solving a great deal more issues than just trades. Break the blocking into tickable boxes; PMs, Chat, Forums, Trades, Branches, Studdings, Events. That way, a wide variety of blocking options will be available for users to mix and match. For example, you can block a user not reading your studding rules from studding to your king, BUT keep the option to buy their trades and branches, because they might be perfectly fine, and etc. Reworking blocking completely is suggested already I believe, and I think its better to do this complex solution rather than coding an entirely new "trades block" feature. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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