Posted by -LOCKED - Community Input on Challenge/Paperclip Trades

Katze (#3)

Heavenly
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Posted on
2022-08-12 09:33:32
Hi, everyone!

As mentioned within August 12th's Community Update news, we are aware that part of the community dislikes challenge/paperclip trades appearing in the Trading Center. One particular topic has had a fair bit of discussion from both sides:
* ⚔️TwoSwordsClash⚔️ (#122111), "Outlaw "joke" trades of 1 SB"

Our stance has generally been that the Trading Center is a player-run "free market". Part of the reason for this is that you, the players, determine the value that items and other assets hold over time. Players are free to try to sell or trade their assets at whatever value they choose, and other players are free to decide whether or not they accept that value.

When it comes to moderating challenge/paperclip trades, the main question is: where do we draw the line? At what value does a trade become more than just a paperclip trade? If an arbitrary value is set, then trades will simply be created at a value just above that. If it becomes a matter of simply disallowing any trades entitled "What can I get for _____?", then we essentially remove open-ended offer-based trades.

We understand that a big concern is how they flood the Trading Center and push legitimate trades out of view, though we have never moderated the amount of trades any one player can post at one time, or how many of a certain type of trade can exist at the same time.

As you can see, moderating these trades isn't a cut-and-dried solution, much as we wish it were.

Potential Solutions
* We could add the ability to conveniently and instantly hide trades under the "Recent Trades" and "Search Results" listings for trades, without needing to click to view the actual trade, and without needing to block the trade's creator. An additional "Hidden Trades" section could be added to the Trading Center interface in case a trade is hidden by mistake.
* There could be an additional option to "Hide All Trades By This Player", as well. This could act as a "soft block" which only prevents you from seeing certain trades, and still allows you to interact with the trade creator.
* We could implement a new Stockpile subforum category for "Challenge Trades", where players would be encouraged to advertise their challenges. Players could then set up private trades if they end up receiving a buyer for their trade, rather than publicly listing their trades in the Trading Center beforehand. The downside of this option is then moderating what does and does not belong within that subforum, needing to cancel/remove any publicly-listed challenge trades, and determining what falls under a challenge trade to begin with.

We would ideally like to hear whether or not this is something you think might provide added value for you when using the Trading Center. Additionally, if you have thoughts on other possible (manageable) solutions or suggestions on how this type of system could be improved, we're open to hearing these as well. Keep in mind that any solutions tied to moderation would require hard-set definitions that not all players may see eye to eye on.

To further clarify: We want your input on how exactly we rule this type of trade - where is the line? Why isn't my 1 SB trade open for any offers allowed? It's a legitimate trade, I am offering something in exchange for an offer. Why would it be considered begging or a challenge/paperclip trade? What if it was 5 SB instead of 1? 10 instead of 5? Who determines whether I'm asking to trade up by offering 1 SB for a Large Leaf?

In order to moderate things like this efficiently, we need a concrete determined set of rules about what constitutes a challenge trade. That's what we need your help with.

If we implement the second Trading Center idea that some people are suggesting, how do we determine that a trade in the "regular" Trading Center isn't just a misplaced challenge trade? This is the conundrum we're having.

This topic will remain open for two weeks, and will be locked on Friday, August 26th, 2022. Once it is locked, our admin team will review it for potential ideas and solutions. We will post an update on the situation as soon as we are able to work one out, if one can be worked out at all—and if we decide not to pursue these trades, we will announce this as well.



This suggestion has 519 supports and 40 NO supports.



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Edited on 12/08/22 @ 10:03:48 by Katze (#3)

Servmouche (#221573)

Total Chad
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Posted on
2022-08-13 09:56:29
@[△] Nadir
if it’s a big enough issue that they’re putting it in the news post as well as making a discussion thread i think it’ll last long enough that a category like that may be a good solution. it may very well last and become yet another staple of lioden trade types like it has been for the past few months



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[△] Nadir (#108458)

Prophet
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Posted on
2022-08-13 10:08:47
Still think it's just more practical and widely useful to implement built-in search exclusion fields into the trading center. As Taka put it, it'll also be useful for more scenarios than just this, as well. Whereas an entirely new category might not even get used.

If players know that their trades might get excluded from searches, what's stopping them from just NOT using that function to ensure more people see it?

If you give players the ability to exclude search terms or conditions, on the flip side, the control is in the hands of those tired of seeing it, and doesn't rely on users actually using the challenge category.



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☆ Đovahkiin ☆ (#187707)

Bone Collector
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Posted on
2022-08-13 10:18:10
I personally think it would be neat to have a mini trading center dedicated to JUST those challenge trades. But again, there could be issues moderating both TCs



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Taka (#17591)


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Posted on
2022-08-13 10:18:18
yeah we definitely don't need a challenge category. it would require something like a checkbox in the create trade that people would need to voluntarily list their trade as. people would intentionally not use it, or just not know to use it, resulting in more work for mods, which doesn't need to exist in the first place if we just have a filter function.



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Shadow (Main) (#73284)

Maneater
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Posted on
2022-08-13 10:21:53
Taka, i was think for the challenge category in trade center those trades would be created Right in that category. A news post could be put out, as well as a note at the top of the normal create a trade area that states something like:
"If you are creating a Challenge/Paper Clip trade please go to this area "link"" That way the players that do them will be taken right to that area.



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🎃 Jen
O'Lantern 🎃 (#177530)


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Posted on
2022-08-13 10:30:27
Honestly all this tagging and setting up a new trades category seems excessive and would probably require an overhaul of the current tc (if it was even used) when these paperclip games can just be moved to the games section of forums with its own sub category.
These trades are pretty much all calling themselves challenges (or, as some people have argued, using the phrase challenge as a guise to encourage generosity) which means they'd be fairly easy to identify and remove from tc. I feel like it wouldn't be too abstract or difficult to enforce a rule that any games or challenges dont belong in tc, especially since there are already rules in place to prevent people from using the trade centre in ways its not intended for.

This way there wouldnt require a minimum trade limit or affect the free market too much while still targeting the "veiled begging" type behavior that people are having a problem with.



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Edited on 13/08/22 @ 10:33:01 by 🦜 Jenday 🦜 Main (#177530)

[△] Nadir (#108458)

Prophet
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Posted on
2022-08-13 11:09:58
Not gunna lie, the whole "what can I get for 1 SB" premise is flat out begging, not even veiled.

What can you get for 1 SB? Nothing, because nothing is even worth that aside from random junk you can sell to the monkey in singles. Even common items like meerkat carcasses sell for 5 SB on branches. Even feathers and underbrush sell for like 20 to 50 SB. Nothing in this game is physically worth 1 SB because who in their right mind is going to stock 1 SB items enough to establish that as their worth on the player market?

It's begging. Call it and treat it what it is. You're asking for handouts. It's not a challenge. It's panhandling. It's you seeing if you can juke people into giving you shit worth more under the premise of a challenge, to make encouraging folks to give you shit for free more 'fun'.



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Edited on 13/08/22 @ 11:10:26 by [△] Nadir (#108458)

Dante ~ Project King
[Main] (#80013)

Impeccable
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Posted on
2022-08-13 11:21:01
@Nadir agreed



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snowmew [G1 14BO
Abyssinian] (#63212)


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Posted on
2022-08-13 11:35:12
@nadir
For real. I just hate that this "challenge" rides off of taking advantage of generous people in our community. It really irks me and feels nasty.



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[△] Nadir (#108458)

Prophet
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Posted on
2022-08-13 11:51:24
I've seen a few that frame it as needing "lots of food". Anyone that desperate for food and hurting that badly it's urgent will hunt and sell things.



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Project King (#185774)

Usual
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Posted on
2022-08-13 11:59:45
I think

1) the "hide these trades / these trades from this user" would be GREAT, Not just be aus eof the paperclip challenges, but I do often see several trades from the same users over and over that are annoying, cause they are on the verge of scam imo. I don't want to block the user, but I also don't want to see their trades every 3 minutes.

2) I think a forum thread for the paperclip /trade up challanges would be an ideal solution. Of course, there will occasionally be people that will post it in tc, but we also get this with heats and raffle advertisements in tc, and if it is clearly a paperclip challanges, I would handle it just like those! Report the trade, get the tc trade canceled by mods and moved to the forums, into the proper thread section.

This might not get rid of all 100%, but it DEFFINILTY would make tc way more enjoyable and easier to adjust.

3) the "hidden trades" section would also be a good idea if implemented, as you indeed sometimes might accidentally hide a trade Ora person, or they might gain more experience and start to offer fair trades, so being able to go back to those and "unhide" them would be ideal



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Syrtis⚽Ignis (#13533)

Nightmare
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Posted on
2022-08-13 13:53:20
I love a subforum of challenge trading or a way to set a new section of trading for challenge trades that can be hidden by a den wall toggle . Treat it as any other monitored form of communication like chat, enter a blurb in the code of conduct and if a player has their trade flagged when not toggled properly, they are trade banned for 3 then 24h then 1 week or some such. I don't appreciate it as i see it's begging, but i would love these sorts of solutions if others find it so necessary or are just curious.



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Sprigatito G1 Deca (#169873)

Amorous
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Posted on
2022-08-13 13:59:35
@Nadir, hard agree. I think in the beginning it may have been seen as a fun challenge but now it does just seem like straight-up begging, especially when people post dozens of them at a time.

While I would prefer a ban I don't think it's feasible -- people will just up the ante to 'what can i get for 100 SB' or something like that, so I think a subforum would be good, or a new section of trading specifically for challenge trading (that wouldn't be visible to unless you chose to go there) would be good with me.



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🦚 Sakasu 🦚 G1
Ukame (#256269)

Frivolous
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Posted on
2022-08-13 14:03:17
I still don't think if there is a new section of trades that it will be used willingly, and it also just feels a bit weird to make them go to their own "corner" of trades.
I do think the soft block/hide this trade/hide trades from this user is the best solution, as long as there's an easy way to manage it just in case you want to unhide it.

I don't think that'd be more work for players than having trying to post their trade in the normal spot then getting flagged and forced to move it to a different trade tab, which just sounds unreasonable to me.



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odin (#35293)

Punk
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Posted on
2022-08-13 15:18:40
I've been seeing these trades more and more on here. Which is annoying. I've been on other sites that have "paperclip" challenges and it's all annoying. One person posts one trade, and then there's just hordes of other doing it. It ruins trades because clogs up the trades and the more trades there are the less people "fall for the bait", so to speak.
I'm 100% in agreement that it's begging.



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