I don't see why we can't just leave it as it is entirely? And not change anything at all? Really, if you get a random base like Cinnabar you can just sell it if you don't want it.

I like Tale's system quite a bit, if we have to change it I personally think that would be the best route. It's a better system, and there really isn't much to it.

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I think any new system would definately confuse a few people at first but it's all a matter of adaptation. I didn't understand how breeding worked for the first year or so of playing the game but I learned. It's all about taking your time, trial and error, and having the community there to help you. I think that's what's great about Lioden - it's a little more complex then other breeding sims without being so complex as to bring in real life genetics.

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I agree with Typhon and I like Tales' idea too. ^_^ Ideally I would like for nothing at all to be changed, but if it has to happen, that's the one I would like to see. But if we aren't going to go with that idea, then adding it as another gradient category (i.e. Countershaded, Solid, etc.) would be acceptable as an alternative.

I'll take anything, except a new base/genetics group. Literally anything is better than that.

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"Brown is close enough to being Black; Glacial however is nowhere near anything like Black. "

... yes, it is. The reason blue bases exist in any form is because "blue" is a term used for grey cat coats and Lioden simply made it a bit more literal for bases like Glacial.

Ice isn't that dissimilar from Maltese, an actual blue cat coat, and therefore fits. Ice would be, in this case, an iridescent version of Maltese.

I can't even fathom how you think blue bases being in black makes 0 sense when that is literally where they belong, but you think bases like Inferno, Green, Glacial, Xanthic, and Cinnabar all in the same category makes sense?

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I'd like it, but only if it will have 0 impact on selective breeding, it's already an rng fest

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I'm also on the boat of making this a shading group rather tan a color group, it could add a little spice to breeding across different groups.

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Of course it would have a huge impact on it, hence why I am so adamantly against this.

I have another idea that would solve the problem of some bases not fitting into their color groups, along the lines of changing the labels of the groups themselves (and thus avoiding the problem altogether). Maybe we could no longer label them as colors at all. What if we just broke the genetics into 4 quadrants (not requiring them to be labelled as color groups at all). Black would be Quadrant 1, Cream = Quadrant 2, Golden = Quadrant 3, Red = Quadrant 4. That way there is less confusion, everything is solved, and we have no need of a new color group at all.

Iridescent could still be added as a gradient so people would have something shiny and new and things would make more sense, I guess. (Or not because it really wouldn't matter, lol.)

This is just a thought but I'd love to hear others' input on it.

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@Kiita; I think that would confuse things further - new players wouldn't know what "quadrant" they should breed to to get the colors that they want. At least how it is now people more or less know what colors they are going to get out of the breeding just by looking at the name. I don't think we should change the color names just for a few bases that are "out of place"

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Yeah that's true... I was just trying to come up with some other solution for all of the people who keep bringing up that point about some bases not being in groups that suit them. (Even though I personally think they are fine as they are.)

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These are my thoughts and opinions after reading everything on this thread in it's entirety. I know some people will probably disagree and that's ok. I mean no disrespect to anyone, so if I come across that way, it is purely unintentional. (I'm not used to posting in forums that much.)

ok so I thought Kiita's idea about the whole Quadrant thing was a good one. It would actually eliminate the confusion when people see a base that doesn't exactly 'fit' within a color group. If people are gonna whine about things not matching, that is a good possible solution so I can see why it was suggested. It would completely eliminate the need to move around bases. but that aside...

This is a terrible idea in it's entirety (the whole iridescent base thing) and I wish no one had ever suggested it. Sorry to be that person but it is what it is and I have to call em like I see em. There is nothing wrong with the genetics system or the shading system as it currently is. I just don't see the need for it at all. It would screw us on breeding projects and effect everyone too negatively. Horrible. Moving around bases will cause so much confusion and chaos in what is already a very complex game. I barely understand it to begin with.

If it is added to the game then I'd really like it if they went with Tales' idea or just dropped it altogether. i guess I'd be alright with it as a gradient but tbh I'm also not completely sold on that idea, since it's sort of hard for me to fully grasp how that would influence breeding mechanics in game. If someone would be able to shed more light on that or maybe simplify it somehow then I'd consider changing my stance on it maybe.

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As the one that created this system, I'd like to weigh in on this topic.

Berenos, I, like you, feel that using Iridescent as a gradient group as opposed to a color group, makes the most sense. This method helps players get what they're targeting without making them potentially undergo a lot of changes that may involve having to cull beloved lionesses or even worse, their irreplaceable kings from their painstakingly-picked prides.

Like Berenos pointed out, those that wish to avoid breeding these bright, so-called "unnatural" colors would easily be able to do so simply by avoiding the Iridescent gradients and those who would like to include all gradients of a current color group, "unnatural" and natural, would just as easily be able to do so by including one or more of these individuals in their programs. I imagine this ease-of-use would make the change much easier for players to adjust to.

I have often mentioned that my criteria for sorting the bases in this system are as such: Black and Cream are associated (Black = cooler; Cream = warmer) as are Red (redder/cooler) and Golden (yellower/warmer). I'd hate the ease of sorting to be disrupted. I think Iridescent as a gradient would make sooooooo much more sense: bases that aren't primarily a traditional gradient, for example, Fiery (orange to white) and contain multiple colors, like the Hematite/Moonshine/Opal series (grey/pink/white), would make excellent candidates for the Iridescent gradient of the Black color group: the coders would need only move them from Countershaded to Iridescent!

While I'm discussing sorting, I also envision the current color groups can expand to include the following tints (I'm not supporting nor disparaging "bright" bases - to each their own):
Black: purple, indigo, blue
Cream: green
Red: red (duh), red-Orange
Golden: yellow
Just thought I'd mention this here for others who, like me, are already thinking about how to fill out potential changes to our current system.

With that said, this is the kind of plug-and-play flexibility I knew this system could have when I first proposed it, and I'm happy that it's still proving to be true!

PS. For the record, yes, these groups were once based on actual cat genetics and pigments (eumelanin vs phaeomelanin). Both brown and blue colors are dilution factors of eumelanin (black) pigment as cream is a dilution of phaeomelanin (red). Because the first version of my model which was based on 7 actual domestic feline color genes was, admittedly, complicated, the one we have in-game is a much more user-friendly version, but it presents the placement challenges we're discussing now.

The inheritance of Medium shades were meant to mimic that of codominance, like Palomino in horses, Blue in chickens, and Pink in Mendel's favorite, the pea plant. The original ratio was 1:2:1, as seen in a cross between two heterozygous parents, but in the interest of making Mediums more attainable, this was modified.

Also, for the record, I haven't had a role in the placement of base colors in over a year.

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I still don't want this, still think (rightfully!) that it would cause massive disruptions to both the site's culture and the site's very substance (ie: bugs for months), and that it's just a generally unneeded change to 'spice things up' when they're fine as it is.

Like, ok, there's too many Black bases right now. So...make...less Black bases...and even out the existing groups!

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I still don't see why this is being pushed. Why do we have to change anything?

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I love the idea of new groups. It may be a shock and a big change at first, but once it's all said and done, we'll be able to adapt, and it'll help us reach our goals that much easier. We'll survive, it's that simple. I understand we spent a lot of money on lionesses towards our goals, but in the end, the change will be much easier on us.

Speaking of bases not being where they belong, on a completely different topic:
I wish Albino would stop popping up out of nowhere, especially in RedxRed breedings, or any breeding that doesn't have to do with the Black base. Make the chance smaller please dear lord.

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I personally thing that a change is a good idea, but that a new shading group will require less adaption. I also think that it makes more sense than a new color group, since then you'd see colors like glacial and cinnabar which don't really go at all lumped in together. The bases should stay in the color groups they're in now, but they should get their own shading group to make it easier for natural base breeders and colorbomb breeders to both get what they want easier.

Also, if the bases were to be in their own color group, they'd probably be a bit too easy to breed and the price would drop. Most of the bases that would fall under "Iridescent" are pretty high value, and I think it's good for the market to keep them high value by keeping them somewhat difficult to breed.

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