I would much prefer it as a gradient rather than a color group... but if it will be a color group, I am strongly opposed to any already existing bases being moved from their current groups to the new one. Please, only new bases to the new group. That wouldn´t be a problem if it was to be a gradient though.

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They actually had a vote on this and decided to do nothing for now because the vote was too close to make a decision on without angering a lot of people. Doing nothing might disappoint some, but doesn't carry the heated emotions that moving bases would.

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Exactly, what Maiq said. I'm glad they're holding off on doing anything for now because the system works just fine as-is. I still say it's better to add it as a shading group and not a full color group, if it has to be added, since adding it as a color group wouldn't make much sense and would also wreck a lot of people's breeding projects.

Personally, I've moved on so it wouldn't effect my own projects as much, but I still care about it on others' behalf. I mean, you can be selfish if you want to, but I'd still rather not ruin things for other people.

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I want this.

Hands down, this is something I want a *lot*. It would make breeding projects for me a lot better.

Breeding interstellars and sitting here having to groan about the fact that weird brown bases are going to crop up in my BLACK bases? To say nothing of the abundance of white bases in the black base genetics group. I design my lions on this account to work on dark bases, specifically for a pseudo glittery look. It would be less of a headache for me to have to try and debate if a Dikela (goddamn Dikelas...) are worth keeping and base changing just because I finally got markings to pass but the base is this weird poopy brown.

And to be frank, Labradorite doesn't belong in Goldens (It's primarily blue and blue bases are considered blacks?) If we could move the blues over, the green (which doesn't even pass so that's weird on its own), the pinks (which are creams, not reds, so literally you aren't even in the right category anyways wtf) and anything else with a weird fantasy tone - Nadir, Pulsar and more - over to Iridescent, I'd feel so much relief.

I think the genetics template needs a severe overhaul as is, but this would be a nice place to start. Moving non-cream, non-red, non-black and non-golden bases into an Iridescent category would make the iridescent category a catch all "fantasy sparkle lions colours" group and keep the others free for more realistic tones. Maybe it would help make those who breed for realistic looking lions more comfortable, and assure those who actually want the fantasy colours would get their own category.

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As I understand it, the color groups were created based on how hair pigmentation works in real life. For example, you have a gene that produces a red coloration, then you have another gene that says how much pigment hair of this human being will have. Less pigmentation will mean a light strawberry blonde, and more pigmentation will be a dark, auburn color. That's how shades work, why we have "Light", "Medium" and "Dark". The Black color group does not ecompass literally "black" bases, but bases that have a "black" pigment, that is present more or less and thus being pitch black hair or with so little to none pigment it looks white.

I still think the best thing would be creating a new gradient group for all the bases that for some reason or another do not fit in with the others in the group, to make it easier to breed them in one hand and avoid them in the other. Genetics need an overhaul to have all bases placed where they should be: in the most fitting color group with the appropiate gradient, and creating a new iridescent gradient would help with that, for those bases that display a color scheme that doesn't fit in with the others - like Nacre or Labradorite -, are shiny - like Artic, Gilded or Pulsar -, or otherwise show colors that aren't fit for the current gradients - like Interstellar, or Rhodonite.

Such a thing would allow the introduction of more colorful bases without much fuss, would make breeding easier for everyone and, on top of that, would help players understand better how Genetics work because they'd know what to expect from a base just by looking at it. Keeping up like it's been done until now, placing a base in a spot where it doesn't really fit in to "fill in an empty space" instead of leaving that place open for a base that would really do will only complicate things further, in my opinion.

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What Berenos said and then some. Your brain's working much more polished-ly than mine at this hour. Thank you. LMFAO

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I suggested this:

https://www.lioden.com/topic.php?id=304429365330

But because of the way the search engine works, I didnt find this topic till later.

I support this. We need lions grouped in more logical color groups. Green does not belong in Gold and Purple does not belong in red and Pink does not belong in Cream and Blue does not belong in Black.

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I was hoping to find something like this, honestly. The friend who first introduced me to LD has long grumbled about blues - a highly unnatural color, if pretty - appearing in black, and her upset only increased with Pulsar. A base she loves, but a bright purple in black genetics? She was mad. I get why. I hadn't joined then, but even a casual glance at the genetics page of the Wiki that she showed me then had me very confused. I assumed blacks would be a monochrome gradient, going from black to white, and hitting grays in the middle. But I saw bases like Arctic, Ice, and, yes, Pulsar in there.

As a new player, I was extremely confused by the color genetics initially. I would much rather have blues and greens in either their own categories - in-keeping with the color themes at present - or, even better, grouped together with the truly outlandishly fantastical bases (my beloved interstellar, rhodonite, and labradorite included....) in the proposed 'iridescent' group. Iridescent seems the easiest and least painful way, especially if it involves using user-suggestions to fill in gaps in the spot and pruning down black's truly messy appearance (in particular) to make room for better-fitting bases in future.

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Please make brown a new color group. I dont like finding brown scattered across so many base groups.

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Xylax, if I may:

I like Iridescent as a Shade, related to Solid and Countershaded. I do believe there ought to be a new color grouping for greens and teals - as those bases come around they will need homes - but I don't think Iridescent should be it. As I played with the idea using preestablished bases, the Color Grouping option gave me far more fuss than the Shade option. Plus, it gives more options.

I made a suggestion called the Great Genetic Reorganization. I won't post it here, I know it's against the rules to share suggestions in another suggestion's thread, but I will share with you the spreadsheets I made. The core spreadsheet is the main Reorganization itself, while I then have a secondary sheet that utilizes the Iridescent as Shade idea.

If you have any further questions regarding this idea of mine or of the Great Genetic Reorganization, please feel free to ask. Good luck on your Iridescent endeavors and future projects on Lioden.

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For what it's worth, as the creator of the genetics system:

Berenos, you've never posted anything about my system that I haven't agreed with wholeheartedly... in fact, weren't you the one that proposed Iridescent as a gradient to begin with? I absolutely love that idea and even created a color chart thread about that idea to illustrate how some really beautiful player-suggested bases (many of which have been added!) could be implemented alongside many beloved in-game bases to enhance game play and help provide solutions to the the "unrealistic" vs "natural" debate. Yours was an elegant, user-friendly suggestion, IMHO. Also, for the record, you're absolutely right: this system was based on IRL genes, specifically the interplay between red (phaeomelanin) vs black (eumelanin) and the known dilutions thereof. I responded to the exciting Iridescent suggestion here:
http://www.lioden.com/topic.php?id=304429293051

Side note: for those who aren't aware, brown/chocolate (B_ vs bb) AND blue/grey dilutions (D_ vs dd) are, in fact, black-based, so their placement as such absolutely does make sense.

KyraG, I *LOVE* what you've done with the spreadsheets, and it re-classifies some, in my opinion, improperly-placed bases (Bloodbourne is *NOT* a Solid, not even according to it's creator). I agree with every single placement, and if it were up to me, I'd sign off on your reorganization immediately.

When I see suggestions and posts like yours (not to mention my pal, Msasi, who always has my back when I'm away from Lioden for long periods of time), it really makes me happy! I love how an idea that took over a year from my original idea to:
1. learning that a realistic, but complicated, seven-gene system was never going to work on Lioden
2. simplifying it enough to be intuitive for all players, regardless of knowledge of IRL genetics (it was NEVER my intention to exclude players, and knowing that my original idea might have done so really motivated me to make sure everyone was included!)
3. tackling the unnatural, but very important rarity levels (we only had 3 then... it seems I just can't resist (Carbon?!) "dating"myself...)
4. making sure it could be expanded upon for future use
5. organizing color groups/gradients/shade (we only had 2 then, but I'd originally proposed Medium shade and we'd planned for at the beginning)
6. classifying existing bases
7. creating bases to fill gaps to learning how to use Gimp to show Xy what the hell I was talking about (poor Xy having to read through all of those long-winded messages I sent!!!)
8. collaborating with talented artists who used their gifts to put together some way-before-their-time colors we still enjoy today
9. creating the very first color charts and campaigning, advertising, and campaigning away! (I'd link that thread, but it's gone now)
10. hovering over those threads daily, answering questions, taking suggestions, considering constructive (and not-so) criticism to make the system better
11. making friends that helped do the same
12. messaging back and forth with Xy and Kitty to get things just where they needed to be in order to launch
13. experiencing the unexpected backlash from a vocal minority on the threads and chat after launch... I had NO IDEA what the dev's and other players who propose their great ideas went through until then! It was quite a reality-check.

You want to see a real blast-from-the-past? Check out the original threads from when I was campaigning the colors AND the model!
http://www.lioden.com/topic.php?id=88446520000

If that got off-topic, I apologize. This system obviously means a lot to me, and it's really rewarding to see others that feel the same way about it. Since I heard about it, I've been all about the Iridescent GRADIENT (not color group... that would be disastrous). I love to see other players that care about it as much as I do, especially those that obviously have an excellent grasp and eye for how it works. Thanks, all of you, for picking up the torch and for taking the time to express your opinions so we can keep this game moving forward and always improving!

Also, I fully expect to be stoned to death for it, but Dikela was, in fact, one of my suggestions! - runs for cover and curls up in the fetal position -

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Alma,

I get that in SOME species, brown works, but if we are going to be "real" we need to get rid of EVERY base in the game except for creams and white because lions only come in cream and rarely, white.

We cannot base every single rule on reality if we have bases like interstellar and bloodborne. To be aesthetically pleasing, as well keeping to some general genetics rules, putting colors in their respective areas makes sense breeding wise, combo base wise and genetics wise. We have had to bend the rule so many times, its not even funny. There is no reason why this cannot be looked at in a different light. In its time, your model was a great starting point, but things have changed wildly. Its evolving into another creature entirely.

We all know that not all our breedings will have recessive or dominant traits, do the fact that its overly complicated, as you stated. Therefore, the guess works goes to the RNG gods to throw a base from the list of bases offered by a machine whose input is fed to it by a human. This just shows that we cannot emulate the real genetics, especially if we have pink or green lions running around. This in itself also negates the "rules" that black MUST have a brown base because brown has a genetic marker for black in real life.

Brown has become a default base for every group it seems, and this does not sit well with MANY breeders. Instead of making a new black base, they use brown, instead of making a new cream base, they fill in brown, and so on and so forth. They need a filler in a base color group, lets put a brown in there.

Put bases in a wider grouping range where they belong logically! Open up more possibilities by offering a larger selection of base groups, Red, Green, Cream, Golden, Black, Blue, Purple, Brown. The combinations would be huge and there would be more variety for everyone. Pure breeders could keep pure, naturals can keep natural, and combo bases could be endlessly possible.

As a chicken breeder, my black australorps have NEVER thrown a brown. If they did I would have scrapped the whole project due to the fact that the line was not pure. Not all species follow your brown hamster example about having the odd brown base. So it should not be rule of law in this case.

There should be more variety in the gray and black range instead of a default filler base, whether is brown, blue or purple . A group for bases based on their actual coloration makes sense and breeding between the two groups would make sense throwing a random base from either group like medium does.

Saying "Brown is a black base and MUST be black" is not always the case with every species, or all genetics models. It works for some but not all. By your logic, the brown bases in red should throw black because according to you, brown is a black trait in real life genetics. Chocolate is a great example. Brown itself is a prime one too, its sitting in red.

Its insulting to be forced to have any base thrown into any group where the breeders are completely thrown off by its presence. Not just brown, but any base thats confusing in its current group. Labradorite really shows. Teardrop is yellowish, but sits in cream, Solaris is orange but sits in cream as well, where in red it might make more sense.

Lioden does NOT follow an exact science, so why force people to endure a base where its not logical? Its not just about browns, but all the bases that really dont seem to sit where they would logically belong. The issue right now, and the reason for shaking things up now, after 2 years, is as you said, dated! And there are SO many new bases, combos and ideas that a selection of 4 colors does cover all bases any more.

Iridescent would be awesome as a gradient rather than a group! That much I agree with!

This is my two cents. Take it or leave it.

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Black Fox, I have to color most of my response with a warning against oversimplifying, whether it be regarding genetics themselves, the mechanics of my model, or, most importantly, the effects any change in the current model might have on the Lioden community.

You're definitely comparing apples to oranges with your Australorps: the genetics of chickens, specifically dilutions of black, are coded somewhat differently than those of cats in significant ways. Even with the obvious omission of pattern mutations, blue (codominant) and lavender (autosomal recessive) in chickens vs blue (dd) and lilac (bb, dd) in cats aren't comparable. Self brown doesn't exist in chickens at all and is, in fact, the result of pattern mutations, which differs even further than the genes of domestic cats (the closest comparison we really have, seeing as most of the colors on Lioden have no comparable color in any large cat population). That doesn't mean that I completely disagree with you, but if you want to know where I stand, you'll have to bear with the thought process that was involved then and what I'm thinking now.

"Brown" as a description of the color we perceive is a very subjective term, being a combination of red, yellow, and blue if not white and black. In mammals it's a little simpler where the two most-comparable types of "brown" can be created by a dilution of Black (B_ Black vs bb Brown/Chocolate/Liver/Friar's Frock, etc.) or a red-brown (E_ Wild-Type vs ee "Clear Red" in dogs). While Ruddy Abyssinian is a pattern mutation that can't be accurately addressed by this model, my complicated original model did, in fact, use this gene where my gradient was "Ticked" instead of "Countershaded". While it was one of the most popular suggestions on Lioden at that time, that model was also highly controversial and prompted threats of rage-quitting of epic proportion. I learned quickly that a compromise that was more inclusive, if not entirely realistic, was necessary, so I went another direction which enjoyed more success.

While my model does allow for more color groups (by design), for each one that's created, there needs to be a minimum of two choices to fill in each category, namely a Countershaded and a Solid, Dark, Medium, and Light shades of each, then 2 for each rarity. If there are gaps, the system doesn't work properly, and if there's only one choice in each category, it gives players either less variation or an advantage in obtaining that base, both of which are unfair to other players and is, therefore, frowned upon by the dev's. A "Brown" group would call for a massive reorganization of many color groups, which would assuredly be met with outrage, as well as upsetting the even-numbered groups balance that currently exist in my model.

If you remove the IRL Black dilution "Brown" from the Black and Red groups, then "Blue" colors would also need to be moved, otherwise, we're just making arbitrary moves that will, inevitably, unbalance the system. However, I want to add that I originally had the following color groups in my original model: Black, BROWN, Blue, Red, Golden, and Cream. I had to condense these into the 4 groups we have today because we didn't have anywhere near the number of bases that we needed to fill out that many color groups at that time. I still toy with the idea of this 6-group expansion implemented when we have enough in-game bases to do so, but for reasons I'm going to explain, I'm not sold... I do partially agree with you, but not necessarily for the reasons you stated and not just by swapping out a few grey bases (those should be placed in a Blue group if Brown were added). I suppose that means I'll take one of your "two cents", but I digress...

An important potential problem I see with more color groups is that the criteria between bases will become more and more subjective and less and less intuitive. For instance, how much would a Brown/Medium/Solid differ from a Red/Medium/Solid? Will your answer be the same as mine? The developers'? Another player who breeds specifically for the Brown group rather than the Red? How many threads will erupt after each placement is agonizingly made because that player thinks think a base should be placed in their group rather than another group's, especially because color is worth a lot more than another and the differences are so slight? It's not just as simple as what's "logical" to YOU: these decisions affect EVERY PLAYER. Even if we go for a more-unrealistic model, which automatically makes me bristle, where these groups might be Red/Orange Yellow and Purple/Blue/Green, we'll run into the same problems. This is, incidentally, why I was such a fan of the Iridescent gradient: the "natural" vs "unnatural"/"intense" vs "blended" choice is much, much easier to identify and classify, solving a problem rather than creating another. Even without the addition of another gradient, a "like-to-like" (same group/gradient/shade/rarity) reduces the variation in any breeding to a pretty manageable level, and this model was deigned specifically NOT to guarantee a 1-color outcome per request of the developers so the market wouldn't suffer and the game wouldn't become stagnant. Again, I specifically planned for multiple problems and multiple styles of play.

It's also worth noting that when we first launched the genetics model, there was a rapid-fire release of bases which seemed to overwhelm many players, and I'd hate to see that happen again if we were trying to simply flesh out a bare-bones model. The artists that contribute their work for us to enjoy free of charge deserve the accolades that follow a release of their base(s), and to rush them along doesn't allow for that. Until you've been in the position of having to make these choices, you might not understand how important these aspects are to other players... hell, *I* didn't think of half of this stuff, but it's all important!

For all of the reasons I've stated here, I stick by the placements I was responsible for and want to direct the conversation back to what I feel is a more productive solution for the current and future bases: the addition of an Iridescent gradient.

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@Alma - your last but one post about your original experience creating the genetics model was really interesting to read through, thanks for sharing! I wasn't very active on LD at the time your initial system was put in place. So although obviously I've been familiar with it since, and read some of your more recent comments about it in a few threads etc, it's interesting to see those early posts and how logical your original model was as well as how it has grown since.

I'm personally still very torn on ever moving substantial amounts of bases entirely from one colour group to another (eg cherry blossom into red instead of cream, etc etc). Especially in terms of special and therefore potentially valuable bases that players have bought or bred for specific projects. Common bases are maybe less of a problem, but specials can be a big investment for people. I'm just not a fan of repeating the widespread upset that has caused in the past, despite the potential advantages in the longterm. I know many others feel it's worth biting the bullet and getting it all sorted out, and I totally get that objectively, but I'm just not really sold on it.

And I certainly don't want whole new groups added in for blues or whatever. I can just imagine the outrage that would cause when everyone's expensive December app bases, or breed-only raffle bases etc, suddenly moved category completely and weren't compatible with their plans anymore...in my experience that kind of thing often gets a lot of upfront support, but then what it actually happens more people realise the repercussions for their projects and whatever, and it turns into a whole drama. The scale of the change with new colour groups would also be much worse than we've had in the past imo, and previous changes have been problematic enough.

That said, I'm much more positive about adding iridescent now than when this thread first came up in 2017 - as a gradient, that is. I always thought gradient was the 'least worst' way to address it if it had to be added at all, but now I think it would be actively useful to add, and I'd definitely support it. Especially now that the number of bases has grown so much. An extra iridescent gradient alongside countershaded and solid seems like the best of both worlds to me, and could allow for more strategic breeding for particular bases, without too much upheaval. And certainly without all the mess of an iridescent colour group which I'm still very much not in favour of..!

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@Alma

I'll be reading through all the other responses here in a minute, but thank you so much for your kind words! It means a lot to me to hear the genetics creator appreciate the work I put into the Great Genetic Reorganization ;v;

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