In the past even moving one or two bases has caused a LOT of upset. And in the main those changes were made a long time ago before the current breeding system became so entrenched and people had spent nearly as much money and time on their projects. Making big changes on this scale now would be unprecedented, if the idea to move multiple bases goes ahead.

The thing is also, I and I assume a lot of people don’t plan their breedings just 'for now'. We save up to get kings and in some cases complete prides that will act as longterm projects. I haven’t changed my main king in years (beyond a few superficial markings and such), and I don’t want to - I saved up to get him exactly how I want: with the base I wanted, in the genetic category I wanted, and then built up lionesses to complement him.

Changing the outcomes people can get from their breedings does affect things - for instance if I couldn’t any longer get the bases from him that I wanted, I’d have to scrap my intended 'forever' king and start from scratch. I don’t want to have to do that, and I’m guessing others don't either.

I’m all for choice and making it possible for people to be able to play the game as they want - adding this as a gradient would allow most of us to alter our plans slightly but mainly continue as we are, as well as giving more freedom to the natural breeders and colourbomb breeders. Some could choose not to breed iridescent at all, some could do partly iridescent partly not, some could breed entirely iridescent. It’s the best of both worlds.

It isn’t really a case of not having room, to my mind. So far I don’t think there's been a major problem with having multiple bases in each genetic category - it just means a few potential outcomes each time and therefore less monotonous breeding. I’m not convinced we need to 'make room' to the extent of a whole new group. As it stands from my own pov and all the points I’ve seen made here, the cons far outweigh the pros with that.

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At this point my own projects wouldn't be affected by this in the least, but it will definitely completely ruin projects for people. Breeding is a huge part of this game, and any changes made to breeding and genetics will affect projects. The only way that this really wouldn't affect anyone negatively is if it was added as a gradient. Just up and moving bases to an entirely new color group is counterproductive and will ruin so many breeding projects, it simply isn't fair to up and pull the rug out from under people for the sake of throwing Lisa Frank lion colors into the same group.

Edit;; on this episode of Typh Can't Type...

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I'm sorry, but I think that a new Shade adds just as much 'room' for bases. You would need Iridescent dark, medium and light bases in all four color groups (minimum of 24 bases to have one common and one special in each space). Where as a new color group would need a minimum of 12 bases to have one common and one special in each space.

Though 'room' is the weakest argument I've seen yet since I know of no maximum on a category for the number of bases in it.

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I don't think shade would be a good idea to throw it in. Gradient I support 100%, but not shade. We don't need dark, medium, light, iridescent, that's just going to destroy things like a new color group would. Maybe not to the same extent, but still bad. Having solid, countershaded, and iridescent would provide little change, and even allow for common or even NCL bases to fit with them.

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We're talking the same thing- replacing solid/counter-shaded with Iridescent. Xylax called it shading in the main post so I did too.

My previous post was just saying a new shade would need black iridescent dark, black iridescent medium and black iridescent light, times all four colors and both common and special.

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I think there's a misunderstanding here, we're referring to "shade" because xylax used it in reference to countershaded/solid even though the wiki uses "gradient".

I believe the majority of us are talking about countershaded, solid, and iridescent.

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But if we make it into a new gradient, then when we breed random countershade and solid together, we can get iridescent?

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No, I don't think that makes sense.

Right now, if you breed two countershaded you get 100% countershaded cubs. Same with solids. Countershaded x solid produces 50% countershaded and 50% solid. I think with the addition of iridescent it work the same. So iridescentxiridescent is 100% iridescent, iridescentxsolid is 50% of each, and so on.

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Shade/Gradient is really the only option here that would work imo

Also, Black having tons of bases shouldn't really be the issue here. Just... make more bases that aren't Black? Moving them to another category isn't the solution that should be had here, I don't think.

You can still make creative bases for Gold and Cream that are colorful, too. For example, Teardrop. It's mostly a creamy color, but it has some nice pink tones on it. Cherry Blossom could also be another example here. It IS pink, but it still has quite a bit of cream undertone that justifies its placement.

Sunset is (mostly) purple, but it's still in the Red category as well, rather than Black. It's a red-toned purple, so it works. Qahir also has some purple tones to it and it's Cream.

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Sounds good

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Tale got it exactly right. "Suddenly all those expensive lionesses that she bought/bred would no longer be useful in her breeding project - she'd have to try to sell them all and buy more appropriate lionesses to continue the breeding project. This would be very expensive and very time consuming, it would set many projects back at least a couple of months."

I JUST got done buying lionesses because I was under the impression that the game worked a certain way. It hasn't failed yet because I haven't even had a proper chance to try yet. I was still working on it and had just gotten done researching the genetics that I would need to get that would give me the best chances of getting what I wanted and gotten the lionesses that I needed to do so. But if this is implemented as a base group, all (or at least most) of the lionesses that I've been working so hard to get for those projects which I was planning to use for them suddenly wouldn't work at all anymore. I don't want to be forced to sell my lionesses because I'm attached to them. Explain to me how that is even remotely right or fair at all?

If they change the way that breeding works altogether (which is exactly what adding a whole new category would do) that is what would happen. It isn't even a maybe, it's the end result if things go that way. But I'm not just worried about me, I'm concerned because of other players who would be facing the exact same difficulty and how it would impact the site in the long run. It may even be worse than I'm thinking it will in the end.

I'd also like to point out what Myriad said: "In the past even moving one or two bases has caused a LOT of upset." Exactly the reason I don't want this to be added. And the rest of that first paragraph, and well everything else too, all very good points. Thalath and Alex also made some great points with what they said.

Going "well I'm a marking breeder so it doesn't affect me" is unfair to those that are affected by it. I only used my own projects as an example because I know that I'm not the only one who would be facing this problem. My point is... It's very frustrating when you work so hard for something, only for it never to happen at all and have zero chance, because the breeding mechanics of everything are suddenly changed. I'd even be fine with adding a new fifth base group, as long as none of the pre-existing bases were added to it.

I know some people like this idea because it's something shiny and new, but I still believe that it would be better suited as a gradient instead of a base, because that would avoid the problem altogether, and still create plenty of new opportunities for new bases to be added to each genetics/base group. If that happened, it would be the best of both worlds, instead of creating so many irreparable problems.

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I'm gonna be the first one to put it in these words- If it isn't broke, don't fix it.

If it NEEDS to be added in, add it in as a countershade/solid and not a group.

Otherwise- just add more pretty bases into the other groups and ignore black for a while.

I mean, maybe we could even start a "design the next base" contest? We could add in a new subforum for "Base Contest" and say 10/27 would be "cream week", people could design a cream base and stick it in that forum, and the ones with the most player votes overall can get voted on in a poll to be added into the game until all of the groups are equal and black isn't a powerhouse anymore. There's plenty of talented basemakers on site, and it could sure bring the community together.

There's simpler solutions than adding a whole new group in. I think we should look at those before heading into a new extreme.

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In addition to what Lex said; don't punish players because the groups aren't equal. It's no fault of their's, just add more of the lacking base colors.

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I agree with both of you. Well said. And that is a wonderful idea Lex... If some of the other groups are lacking, then we should be more concerned about filling in those gaps than worrying about detracting from the group that has more. I love it.

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Oh, great idea Lex!!
If iri is added as a third gradient category, that's fine, but I definitely agree that rounding out the other three color groups to balance black should be the real priority. Look how lousy even red is when compared to black - black has so many commons that are actually black or at least grey, meanwhile a lot of common and even special 'reds' are . . . tan. Black has brown and brown-ish commons, but black specials are black or interesting, not 'muddy.' Meanwhile, the fails for some breed-only red specials are brown. You could swap half of the red commons and specials into cream and they'd look like they belonged. . . . well, honestly as someone who breeds both reds and creams, I really wouldn't mind if the not-very-red reds replaced some of the really boring creams. Let's be real here, cream's got the short end of the stick even when compared to gold. Gold is just unloved because it's so heavy on NCL-available solids. A lot of the bases are actually very nice and fairly distinct from one another while cream bases, especially solids, are terribly samey. Give red some more natural reds to balance the brown, give cream some more interesting representation, give gold some app specials already, and that would be a good start to fixing the 'problem' we have with black having all the fun bases.

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