Posted by -LOCKED - Community Input on Challenge/Paperclip Trades

Katze (#3)

Heavenly
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Posted on
2022-08-12 09:33:32
Hi, everyone!

As mentioned within August 12th's Community Update news, we are aware that part of the community dislikes challenge/paperclip trades appearing in the Trading Center. One particular topic has had a fair bit of discussion from both sides:
* ⚔️TwoSwordsClash⚔️ (#122111), "Outlaw "joke" trades of 1 SB"

Our stance has generally been that the Trading Center is a player-run "free market". Part of the reason for this is that you, the players, determine the value that items and other assets hold over time. Players are free to try to sell or trade their assets at whatever value they choose, and other players are free to decide whether or not they accept that value.

When it comes to moderating challenge/paperclip trades, the main question is: where do we draw the line? At what value does a trade become more than just a paperclip trade? If an arbitrary value is set, then trades will simply be created at a value just above that. If it becomes a matter of simply disallowing any trades entitled "What can I get for _____?", then we essentially remove open-ended offer-based trades.

We understand that a big concern is how they flood the Trading Center and push legitimate trades out of view, though we have never moderated the amount of trades any one player can post at one time, or how many of a certain type of trade can exist at the same time.

As you can see, moderating these trades isn't a cut-and-dried solution, much as we wish it were.

Potential Solutions
* We could add the ability to conveniently and instantly hide trades under the "Recent Trades" and "Search Results" listings for trades, without needing to click to view the actual trade, and without needing to block the trade's creator. An additional "Hidden Trades" section could be added to the Trading Center interface in case a trade is hidden by mistake.
* There could be an additional option to "Hide All Trades By This Player", as well. This could act as a "soft block" which only prevents you from seeing certain trades, and still allows you to interact with the trade creator.
* We could implement a new Stockpile subforum category for "Challenge Trades", where players would be encouraged to advertise their challenges. Players could then set up private trades if they end up receiving a buyer for their trade, rather than publicly listing their trades in the Trading Center beforehand. The downside of this option is then moderating what does and does not belong within that subforum, needing to cancel/remove any publicly-listed challenge trades, and determining what falls under a challenge trade to begin with.

We would ideally like to hear whether or not this is something you think might provide added value for you when using the Trading Center. Additionally, if you have thoughts on other possible (manageable) solutions or suggestions on how this type of system could be improved, we're open to hearing these as well. Keep in mind that any solutions tied to moderation would require hard-set definitions that not all players may see eye to eye on.

To further clarify: We want your input on how exactly we rule this type of trade - where is the line? Why isn't my 1 SB trade open for any offers allowed? It's a legitimate trade, I am offering something in exchange for an offer. Why would it be considered begging or a challenge/paperclip trade? What if it was 5 SB instead of 1? 10 instead of 5? Who determines whether I'm asking to trade up by offering 1 SB for a Large Leaf?

In order to moderate things like this efficiently, we need a concrete determined set of rules about what constitutes a challenge trade. That's what we need your help with.

If we implement the second Trading Center idea that some people are suggesting, how do we determine that a trade in the "regular" Trading Center isn't just a misplaced challenge trade? This is the conundrum we're having.

This topic will remain open for two weeks, and will be locked on Friday, August 26th, 2022. Once it is locked, our admin team will review it for potential ideas and solutions. We will post an update on the situation as soon as we are able to work one out, if one can be worked out at all—and if we decide not to pursue these trades, we will announce this as well.



This suggestion has 519 supports and 40 NO supports.



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Edited on 12/08/22 @ 10:03:48 by Katze (#3)

ToxicTaeTae (#177039)

Sapphic
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Posted on
2022-08-12 11:41:07
Not sure if this has been suggested already, but I think an "exclude" section for trades made/designed the same way as the include one might help not only this, but other issues in TC. That way you could exclude certain keywords, certain marks/bases/appearances you are not interested in, and there could possibly be a "hide recent trade" checkbox included like how there is a checkbox to find lionesses in heat. :) Or maybe even a checkbox for trades that are buyout only for the people who are looking to buy things instead of offer for them. A great deal of the paperclip challenge trades are up for offer, so though it might not filter them all out, it could still help with a large portion. I see it from both angles. When it becomes a bunch of people trying to trade for 1SB that have no offers, it can clog up trade center sometimes. However, some challenge trades are not just spam trades. They are legitimate trades that start out at a smaller value (ex. 1GB to ____) and I think to moderate them out of TC entirely seems like an unfair idea because some of the trades do garner legitimate interest. :) Either way, I do hope some kind of solution is found that keeps at least the majority happy!



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Ghilanain [frozen] (#129572)

Bone Collector
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Posted on
2022-08-12 11:46:29
I’ve been thinking about this for a while, and it’s really nice to see that it’s being reviewed so thoroughly <3

I like the idea of having some sort of feature that lets us sort out trades, but I feel like that is a solution for a different issue than the one we’re discussing here; I feel like the ‘soft block’ option is like trying to put a bandaid on a fracture and then call it good.

In the long run, I think the subforum idea is the most viable option, although I realize that this will add a lot more pressure on moderators to tidy up. I just feel like these ‘challenges’ are a) veiled begging and b) misuse of a game feature when they clog up the Trade Center - often because one player lists several trades like that at a time.

My suggestion would be to go for the forum option and ban ‘challenge/paperclio’ trades from the TC entirely, and limiting each account to only one challenge forum thread at a time.



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RodentRoaster | G2
Wicked NRLC (#307968)


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Posted on
2022-08-12 11:51:21
I agree with Sapphic- however.

I think we should just ban the "What can I get for 1sb????" trades. Actually try to give someone something they'd want. Challenges should be kept, as they are meant to change the game. However, something they could state instead of "WHAT CAN I GET FOR 1 GB?????", it should be something like "Trading 1 SB! LF Offers!".

The problem I can see with the 1SB banning solution, is people just getting around it. It might be high-time to make a rule list for trading....



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Edited on 12/08/22 @ 11:54:53 by MoistSock (#307968)

Egg (#119522)

Luscious
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Posted on
2022-08-12 11:53:02
I completely agree with this post by Valentine. A feature like this would not only solve the problem but it would help in many other ways when looking through the Trading Center. This way we wouldn’t have to block all of another player’s trades if they have some legitimate trades up, it would only affect their “what can I get for x?” and paperclip trades.

Edit: corrected wording



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Edited on 12/08/22 @ 11:53:57 by Egg (#119522)

Sterling | G1 Ennead
Svelte (#52017)

Heavenly
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Posted on
2022-08-12 11:55:45
Initially I thought the softblock would be the best option, as it could be an over-all quality of life improvement that wouldn't be limited to paperclip challenges, however after reading some of the posts in this thread I'm not as sure.

There are LOADS being posted and it can be tedious to sort through at times, once in a while a page can be 1/4-1/3 full of just SB challenges, especially if you're the type that has broader searches rather than specific items. For example I like to look search for "marking apps/base apps" to see if there's anyone looking to trade ANY applicator that I find interesting for other items or lions I have plus the option of mixed currency; Even with these higher-value items I still sometimes find initial paperclip challenges in these searches as well.

It's very obvious that you're unlikely to get any app, even a cheaper May app, for 1SB. People who give away items for that little generally throw stuff onto the tree, they don't go prowling the TC in hopes that someone wants it. It can come across as entitlement when the giving tree is right there, there's items worth far more than 1sb there all throughout the day. Using the TC also essentially provides a way to reject a nearly-free item regardless of value.

I do feel that a flat ban of trades calling themselves "challenges" would be most beneficial. This is anecdotal but I've seen very few challenge trades that are actually further up the trading chain, a good majority of these trades are in the initial stage and rarely seem to go past that; it just feels like spam. Moving them to a forum would also be useful, but I understand this would be even more work for the moderators, and it'd be for what I frankly think isn't an easy challenge to start.

There's no reason a person would be able to still do the challenges post-ban, *if* they do not label a trade as a challenge and limited themselves to good-faith trades rather than begging . For example, I could hypothetically post a mouse decor, asking for a small piece of common decor in exchange, and I could wait until I get an offer with a scar decor worth juuuuust slightly more than my mouse. I could pop that scar decor back up on the TC to rinse and repeat, and if these trades are not deliberately labelled as a challenge (and I ask for reasonable things) it's less likely to clog other people's searches.

Just throwing a single silver beetle out there isn't useful to anyone, that's just my 2c so far.



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Kami
(MheiraArtStudio) (#4873)


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Posted on
2022-08-12 11:58:19
I believe the best solution for this problem would be the implementing both a new section named "Challenge Trades" or "Paperclips", so that people interested in that kind of thing can access it separately, and the "Hide All Trades From This Player" option. That option could also be used for other types of trades a specific player keeps creating, which does not interest you, and be used if a player keeps misplacing their paperclip challenge trades.

Implementing both would help filter out the majority of those problematic trades out of the trading tree, while giving the option to other players to hide the ones that are misplaced. It would also help MODs so they don't have too much to do about the subject.



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LimblessWolf🐺🌸
Constellation (#222067)

Lone Wanderer
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Posted on
2022-08-12 12:08:41
Love the idea of making certain trades nonvisible to you with just a button, that'd do it for me!



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Slurry [G3
Tri-Phantom] (#289264)

Impeccable
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Posted on
2022-08-12 12:13:55
I cannot stand these types of trades. Soft block would be great. I would also love the ability to hide trades in TC that are misleading/overpriced so I stop accidentally clicking on them over and over.



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Fading Angel (G2 2k)
[Frozen] (#81854)

Holy
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Posted on
2022-08-12 12:15:32
^^^^^^

Personally find the over priced trade much more frustrating then the challenge trades tbh



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Michael (#16)

Famous
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Posted on
2022-08-12 12:24:01
@Egg: This was addressed in this post.



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mel (#160860)


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Posted on
2022-08-12 12:31:43
i do like the idea of the player being able to blacklist certain keywords, like a “do not include _____” but with trade names. would not be flawless but would weed them out



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💰Green1Chaos (#32339)

Lone Wanderer
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Posted on
2022-08-12 12:37:43
A secondary or separate filter for these paperclip trades should be recommended. It's one thing to list items that equal a value of a certain item. But another for something worth GB. I have seen it where people are listing paperclips for Mutes too, equal for request for a dwarf, Timon, and or/leopon. Their should be a limit on what should and should not be asked for in these paperclip.



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Egg (#119522)

Luscious
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Posted on
2022-08-12 12:42:30
@Michael: thank you, I hadn’t skimmed through many of the previous posts on this thread yet so I hadn’t seen it. I appreciate the response!



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Michael (#16)

Famous
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Posted on
2022-08-12 12:43:04
@jay: This was addressed in this post.



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Michael (#16)

Famous
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Posted on
2022-08-12 12:43:27
You're welcome, Egg!



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