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| Posted by | -LOCKED - Community Input on Challenge/Paperclip Trades |
 Katze (#3)  
Heavenly View Forum Posts  Posted on 2022-08-12 09:33:32 |
Hi, everyone! As mentioned within August 12th's Community Update news, we are aware that part of the community dislikes challenge/paperclip trades appearing in the Trading Center. One particular topic has had a fair bit of discussion from both sides: * ⚔️TwoSwordsClash⚔️ (#122111), "Outlaw "joke" trades of 1 SB" Our stance has generally been that the Trading Center is a player-run "free market". Part of the reason for this is that you, the players, determine the value that items and other assets hold over time. Players are free to try to sell or trade their assets at whatever value they choose, and other players are free to decide whether or not they accept that value. When it comes to moderating challenge/paperclip trades, the main question is: where do we draw the line? At what value does a trade become more than just a paperclip trade? If an arbitrary value is set, then trades will simply be created at a value just above that. If it becomes a matter of simply disallowing any trades entitled "What can I get for _____?", then we essentially remove open-ended offer-based trades. We understand that a big concern is how they flood the Trading Center and push legitimate trades out of view, though we have never moderated the amount of trades any one player can post at one time, or how many of a certain type of trade can exist at the same time. As you can see, moderating these trades isn't a cut-and-dried solution, much as we wish it were. Potential Solutions * We could add the ability to conveniently and instantly hide trades under the "Recent Trades" and "Search Results" listings for trades, without needing to click to view the actual trade, and without needing to block the trade's creator. An additional "Hidden Trades" section could be added to the Trading Center interface in case a trade is hidden by mistake. * There could be an additional option to "Hide All Trades By This Player", as well. This could act as a "soft block" which only prevents you from seeing certain trades, and still allows you to interact with the trade creator. * We could implement a new Stockpile subforum category for "Challenge Trades", where players would be encouraged to advertise their challenges. Players could then set up private trades if they end up receiving a buyer for their trade, rather than publicly listing their trades in the Trading Center beforehand. The downside of this option is then moderating what does and does not belong within that subforum, needing to cancel/remove any publicly-listed challenge trades, and determining what falls under a challenge trade to begin with. We would ideally like to hear whether or not this is something you think might provide added value for you when using the Trading Center. Additionally, if you have thoughts on other possible (manageable) solutions or suggestions on how this type of system could be improved, we're open to hearing these as well. Keep in mind that any solutions tied to moderation would require hard-set definitions that not all players may see eye to eye on. To further clarify: We want your input on how exactly we rule this type of trade - where is the line? Why isn't my 1 SB trade open for any offers allowed? It's a legitimate trade, I am offering something in exchange for an offer. Why would it be considered begging or a challenge/paperclip trade? What if it was 5 SB instead of 1? 10 instead of 5? Who determines whether I'm asking to trade up by offering 1 SB for a Large Leaf? In order to moderate things like this efficiently, we need a concrete determined set of rules about what constitutes a challenge trade. That's what we need your help with. If we implement the second Trading Center idea that some people are suggesting, how do we determine that a trade in the "regular" Trading Center isn't just a misplaced challenge trade? This is the conundrum we're having. This topic will remain open for two weeks, and will be locked on Friday, August 26th, 2022. Once it is locked, our admin team will review it for potential ideas and solutions. We will post an update on the situation as soon as we are able to work one out, if one can be worked out at all—and if we decide not to pursue these trades, we will announce this as well. |
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Fading Angel (G2 2k) [Frozen] (#81854) Holy View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:42:35 |
The biggest issue I see in letting trades be flagged. Which I'm not against. Is that there's trolls in general. Anywhere in life. Online. Games, irl. I feel some people will flag to flag. And make the poor mods work like crazy for even bigger nonsense  0 players like this post! Like? |
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Cosandk (#103750)
Demonic View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:42:45 |
Ive seen some people say these "challenges" seem like games, in which case, a subforum would definitely be best. But that does result in the issues of what exactly constitutes as a "challenge"? I think it's usually pretty easy to tell its part of the challenge, as its usually a low amount (1-10sb) and the user is trying to get a high value item (muties, special bases, etc). I feel like wording is what needs monitored. Like how we no-longer can call them "free studdings", but "refunded studdings" is allowed. If someone wants to put a trade up, and legitimately wants to see what they could get for x amount, then it needs to be made clear they aren't doing it for the "challenge". It, at least, would still let newbies (or whoever) set up low value trades and actually want to trade..not just do a challenge. I mean, for awhile after the "Free/Refunded studdings" change happened, people were still getting warnings months to a year or so after it happened. Now..you rarely see it, if ever. Maybe something like that needs to happen for this "trend" to finally go away? 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Khajiit {G1 Leonid Splash} (#68800) Cursed View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:43:04 |
Yeah, December is the fest of veiled begging, which is just, a goddamn shame. I still stand by banning/treating the paperclip as veiled begging and having it moderated, but subforum that doesn't show in the recent activity unless you opt to see it is the way to go at this point. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Fading Angel (G2 2k) [Frozen] (#81854) Holy View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:43:36 |
Rufus. I've been playing for years. And this is the first time the last 2 or 3 months. That I've seen it happening? December is literally the month of giving. But I do agree every year people are obnoxious with what they ask for 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 12/08/22 @ 10:45:03 by Fading Angel (G1 5k Pearl) (#81854) |
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claire [side] (#187131)
View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:43:47 |
As much as I don't want to create extra work for the admin and mods, I fell a subforum would be the best option as it get's these trades out of the Trading Center! 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Nameko (Ebony RLC) (#214773)
View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:44:06 |
Hello  I have found these trades to become irritating, with the whole trading center simply being clotted up by them. There is always at least one of these in a single page, making it increasingly difficult to find fair or useful trades. Similar to other players, I would say that the line should be drawn where players are asking for items that are "equal or higher" than the value they are offering, along with the trades that are labeled "1SB to 100GB", "1SB to a Hybrid", etc. Although these trades seem to have not truly broken any rules within the "begging" section, they are, ultimately, another form of begging. These "challenges" are treading the grey areas of Lioden rules. The trading center was made for actual trading. 300GB for a tigon. 25 for a buffy. Things that are of equal value to each other. In addition, blocking would not solve all these issues. There are tens and hundreds of these trades created each day, and it would be extremely tedious to have to block every person with these trades going on. Either a subforum should be created, or another subsection of TC just to entertain these trades. This way, players could still carry out the challenges, and those who find them annoying could filter them. Like what many others have said, the line should be drawn where the trade states something along the lines of "higher value" or "1SB to 100GB", "1SB to a Hybrid", etc. Thank you for reading through this  This will be hard work for the mods and devs, and I'm sure the whole community will appreciate it. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Headless [2/17/23 RLC] (#231939)
View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:44:16 |
I think the filter-out idea could work, with a bit of tweaks, Personally I'd go for adding tags to trades which can be quite tricky, but hear me out! In trades, you could tag them as generally "Lion Swap", "Currency Exchange", "Challenge/Looking to see what I'll get", "Item swap", "Buying lion/item", "Selling lion/item", "Lion Swap", "Mixed" etc etc. something like this, This would allow players to filter out all the tags/categories of trades they're not interested in, as well as search for ones that they are interested in. *Players would have the option as to which tag to select for their trade this would require quite a bit of moderation, yes, but this would give players more specific options to search TC with AND allow them to filter out said "what can i get for 1 sb" trades. in terms of figuring out what type of Tag it would need *can* be easy, as you can generally and broadly classify the tags. the "Lion swap" tag for example could be used to classify a mutie swap, a Hybrid swap, a Colorbomb swap, etc etc, "Item swap" too could be classified as giving an Item for an Item and "Currency Exchange" for exchanging your SB to GB or the other way around,,you get the gist. "Mixed" tags can be used for those who do not classify under any other type of trade, it would also be good to create a "help" page for said tags, just in case a player has any questions about what tag their trade should be. NOW, this would require in best case scenario, a little bit of moderation or in worst case scenario, a TON of moderation in TC. My idea is, Let the player tag their trade, and If the trade is incorrectly tagged allow users to flag/report the trade for incorrect tag, notifying the mods and allowing them to focus on the flagged trades, rather than making them check every single trade that is posted in TC and make sure that their tag is correct. Anyhow this idea will likely have some holes, which could be modified/edited, however it is also likely a bit too much work, buut it is an Idea and if it works, hey! nice! if it doesn't then theres likely a better solution. Possible Pros - Players get to browse the type of trades they're interested in - Players get to filter out all types of trades they're not interested in - Everyones free to make whatever trade they want, so long as they tag it correctly Possible Cons - a LOT more moderation required on TC - Could possibly be difficult to make/put into effect feel free to add your own Pros/Cons, as i have spent 5-6 times rewriting this and my feeble brain cannot comprehend no more, Excuse any misspellings or any phrases that look out of place or dont make sense. And, Thank you for addressing this. You guys do a great job with listening to the community and we appreciate you! hopefully my idea helped a little bit ^^ I wish you luck! 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Taemin|G1 Prism Nebulous (#214322) Sapphic View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:45:15 |
I personally believe these trades are people getting through a begging loophole. Offering less than 10SB is just not fair, it's an attempt to get decent items without trying. However, these trades are only popular because they're working. Some kind and generous players are for whatever reasons they may have participating in these challenges. I think it's taking advantage of the kind community we have here, but it's still other people's choice. It's a lot of hard work for the moderator team but I think a good option would be a separate forum or section of the Trading Centre where people can make these challenges. That way, if you want to do one or help someone else's you're completely free to, but if you hate the concept you don't have to worry about it flooding the TC. One solution could be similar to the message flagging system. In this new section of the trade centre, or the forum, there could be an option to report this message as being in the wrong channel, without making a complex ticket, that way a quick glance can help to organize it better (if this isn't how it works please feel free to clarify). If this is possible without overworking our already hard working moderating team then hopefully all parties will be satisfied. New players want a way to gain items and have fun, even if many people disagree or see it as begging it's still completely up to the people whether they want to participate or not. I've seen some trades like this starting with 1GB, it's more acceptable because it'd offering something of better value, so it's not so much begging as it is hoping for an up trade. But I think a crackdown on trades that's literally begging for something decent is necessary. Not a ban, just better containment, otherwise it could be hard for proper trades to be seen and interacted with when people see others offering 1SB and managing to get a hybrid from that. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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🎃 Jen O'Lantern 🎃 (#177530)
View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:46:00 |
First off thank you for listening to our concerns! I think a general rulling its fair to remove all self described "challenge" or "trade up game" trades from TC with a blanket ban would be the easiest rulling moderation wise. After that, the "what can I get for X" trades dont need to be moderated if we can filter out those specific phrases, although I believe the current system should be refined from what Michael (#16) has described to a specific box for unwanted phrases for accessibility. Any that slip through the net after that can be blocked or reported accordingly. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Peking Doose #Beetleden (#63419) View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:46:05 |
I'm just hoping this paper clip trade trend just dies off on it's own. I don't have an issue with the trades themselves, it's a bit of a problem when one person creates 30+ of them. Perhaps add an option to 'ignore' a specific user's trade without blocking them entirely. Ignored users in TC can have a 30 day expiration date, much like the trades themselves. They have got to get bored at some point constantly setting up these 1sb to x trades. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Adam (#169289)
Renowned View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:47:12 |
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Dante ~ Project King [Main] (#80013) Impeccable View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:47:19 |
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Rufus (#208144)
Usual View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:47:36 |
the trades have been here for almost a year now, they started in October and got worse in december-january because one user decided to start it back up again [i won't state who it was obviously], but that's why it's such an issue now. The trades do also get worse in december, it's just not as noticed because it's more in the forums than anything. The wording of trades needs to be monitored, and i wholeheartedly think that the games should be kept to a forum, and no limitations regarding prices should be made. Anywho i'll pop off now because my screen is hurting my eyes 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Rufus (#208144)
Usual View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:48:47 |
also, most 1sb trades tend to get deleted after an hour because the user has given up, then they just create more, that's my main issue with it. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Taemin|G1 Prism Nebulous (#214322) Sapphic View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 10:50:32 |
I agree with Rufus, I've seen some that work which is a little annoying but that's in the people who offered their stuff for a couple SB. But mostly, they don't work, they just clog it up, and trading is already rather difficult recently 0 players like this post! Like? |
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