Posted by [++] The Ability System

Axel (#6627)

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Posted on
2014-04-08 20:54:29

The Ability System

- balance for gameplay

After many changes in the gameplay, the way the battles and the new claiming system works, I think there could be a small addition, which shows our hard work and affects our progress a lot more than stats.

So, I propose a new system.


The Ability System

Description:
This system would be completely independent of stats.
So, the lions could use abilities in either fighting, charming, or exploring to make them more successful. These abilities would depend on points, level, skill, and karma.

How it works in short:

There would be a total of 10 abilities in fighting, 3 for charming, and 5 for exploring. (these can be changed)
Each ability appears at the aforementioned situations which then can be used to gain advantage.
Each ability will need points to have a potential efficiency, skill to reach the true efficiency, and karma, which determines your ability arsenal.

Points:
Points can be used to make an ability better and be performed with a greater success rate. It is never 100% though. In total 10 points can be added to one ability to reach its max potential, which would be performed at 90-95% efficiency.

Points can be earned by:
- Leveling (2 points - maybe rarely 3 points) - 31 levels give 62 points
- Visiting for 12 consecutive days (1 point) max 16 points
- Fighting NPCs (a 10% chance for 1 point)
- Claiming lionesses (a 5% chance for 1 point)
- Reaching the next karma level (1 point) -only once each karma level - max 34 points
- Filling Dreamboat Impression bar (1 point?)

Max 180 points can be assigned entirely.

Level:
Level is mainly used to earn points. Each time you level, you earn 2-3 points, so leveling will become a greater desire to players. It also –just like now- raises the limit of skill you can earn.

Skill:
Skill would determine how much % of the points you have will be counted in per ability. After all, the points only determine the potential efficiency of an ability. So if you have 10 points in one ability, but have barely any skill, then a low % of these points will be counted into the performed ability, so it still can fail, despite the high success rate.
This would also depend on your level, considering the limit on the skill.

Eg.:
Level 20 lion has 10 points in one ability, so has technically 90-95% chance to succeed, but has only 120 skill (so half of the max of that level), he would end up with 45-50% success at an ability if performed.

Level 2 lion has 10 points in one ability, so has technically 90-95% chance to succeed, but has only 12 skill (so half of the max of that level), he would end up with 45-50% success at an ability if performed.

(Although, the last would be impossible, due to the point distribution, but it shows well, that low level, even new players will not be at great disadvantage)

Karma:
Karma would ultimately determine what kind of fighting abilities your lion can have.
They could be put into two groups: Good Karma abilities, Bad Karma abilities.
(Each would contain 5 abilities)
Obviously, if you have positive karma, then you will end up with the former.
If you have neutral Karma… then you can have both groups, so it pays off the effort to keep a neutral Karma, and Cleansing Ichor would be used more frequently.
However!
Pay attention!

‘More’ doesn’t always mean ‘better’.

How would this work?
Every lion starts out with a set of 10 fighting abilities, 3 charming abilities, and 5 exploring abilities, due to having neutral Karma. All abilities would have no points within them.
Upon starting the game with a lion (be it starter or heir) you get 5 points to start out with, which you can distribute wisely among the 18 abilities.

From there, the game starts. Leveling, fighting, maybe even attacking other lions could give you points, which you can wisely put into your chosen abilities. You can either work for a positive, negative, or neutral Karma, which will modify the arsenal of abilities in fighting.

NPC fights:
Once entering battle, you can choose between the specific amount of abilities in an attack depending on your karma. There would be HP for both you and your opponent, just like right now. The success of the battle may depend on your abilities.

PVP fights:
The bonus abilities (see below) that you can gain from the ability system affect PVP. This would be one thing that could be connected to the ability system and a goal to set for players to unlock the special passive abilities for their lions in each generation.

Claiming Lionesses:
Once you click ‘Claim her’, you will be brought onto the claiming page.

There, your Charming abilities are listed, which you can use to either boost your chances or reduce the temper of the lioness. Maybe there could be a passive ability, which lets you start with an extra heart or two in the bar.

Exploring:
Instead of just the explore button, there would be abilities listed right along with it, which you can choose to perform every 4 hours (or once a day). They will help you with exploring upon activation.

Eg.: One ability could help you find quest items, another that lets you find more resting places, perhaps another that increases or decreases enemy encounters.

What about Lionesses?
I had two ideas for this.

a) They get no abilities or points.

b) They would have their own set of abilities. Hunting abilities. They can have a chance of gaining points after each successful hunt, and get 2-3 points after each level-up. These would be passive abilities, so always active.

List of Abilities
Note: This can be changed, altered, these are just suggestions, taken from this thread or thought out on my own or they already exist. All damage of an ability falls back on your lion if it failed.

Fighting Abilities:
(The more points you put into an ability, the less chance there is to miss -but cannot overwrite the written-down limit- OR the more damage/protection the ability gives)
Negative Karma-
- Suffocate - 30% damage
- Scratch limbs - 20% damage
- Roar of Fury - Gives + 10% damage to next attack - Opponent freezes/ Fail ends in you receiving 10% damage (+ damage done by opponent?)
- Neck bite - 20% damage, has a 30% chance of breaking opponent’s neck, so ending the fight
- Last Stand - When your lion reaches 20% or less health, he can attack out of turn once. Does 40% damage at 40% chance of success.

Positive Karma-
- Intimidating Roar - 10% damage - Opponent freezes
- Dominating - 20% damage - 30% chance of Opponent getting intimidated and flees
- Thick Skin - Receive 10% less damage at next turn - Guaranteed (+ Can use another ability?)
- Bluff Charge - 20% damage
- Last Stand - When your lion reaches 20% or less health, he can sound a thundering roar, which has a 40% chance of sending the opponent fleeing.

Charming Abilities:
(The more points you add to an ability, the more chance there is that the lioness will like the move)
- Apedamek's Blessing - Adds 1-2 hearts to the claiming bar.
- Right of the King - Removes 2-3 temper from the bar
- Prince Charming - Adds an extra heart to each of your moves in this claiming attempt.

Exploring Abilities:
(The more points are put into an ability, the more clicks the ability lasts -but not more than what is written down)
- Catnip/Flower Bath - adds 20% more chance to find NCLs and feline opponents for the next 30 clicks.
- Mark Territory - reduces the NPC encounter by 20%, adds 20% chance to finding carcasses and items. Lasts 30 clicks.
- Lazy Cat - Rest 30% more times to gain more energy. Lasts 20 clicks.
- Sneaky Raccoon - Find 40% more carcasses for the next 20 clicks.
- Focus - Adds 30% chance to finding quest items/NPCs for the snake. Lasts 30 clicks.

Hunting Abilities: - For Lionesses
- Power - The more points it contains, the more % chance it adds for bigger carcasses despite level/skill
- Lone Hunter - The more points it contains, the more % chance it adds for this lioness to bring back +1 smaller carcass from a hunt
- etc…
If Roles for Lionesses are brought in, there can be abilities specifically for those roles.

Important Notes:
- Do not ask for stats to affect the abilities. They wouldn’t.
- Submales should only gain up to 120 skill in their patrols to prevent huge advantages.
- Ability points are not inherited, just like skill, Karma, and level. The perfect way to balance gameplay between oldies and newbies.
- Points for Karma levels are only given out once. Eg. If you reached Dreamboat of Ladies and got the points, then you use the ichor to reset your Karma, you will not get points again for the level scale. (in one lion's lifetime)
- Upon switching from positive to negative Karma, or vice versa, the points you already put into the opposite ability will not vanish but will be saved to when you get back to that karma.
- Enables tactical thinking
- Effort of an individual would be shown in three ways instead of one: stats, points, maxed abilities
- No GB items that give you points, please...
- Suits all playerstyles: PVP players, PVE players get something to do, and breeders for looks can keep breeding for looks.
-----------------------------------

New Additional Ideas



1.) Bonus Passive Abilities
After maxing out the abilities of one section (fighting, exploring, charming), you could maybe get a bonus passive ability as a reward for that section. These abilities would be of course more valuable, since they are rewards, and would be always affecting your gameplay.

Suggestions:
Fighting ability -
Negative Karma: Beast - Deliver 5% more damage per attack
Positive Karma: Paladin - Receive 5% less damage per attack

Charming ability - Dreamboat: Start claiming by the bar already having 25% filling

Explore ability - Voyager: Receive 10% more exp OR receive additional explore steps

I also had the idea, that perhaps after collecting each of these bonus abilities, you could have one reward ability for it, called 'The King of the Jungle'. I am not sure what it would do though. Unlocking this ability will be practically impossible, so it could do pretty badass things.
----------------------------------
This idea is highly in development, and am free to suggestions. Give your own opinion.

Thanks.




This suggestion has 209 supports and 96 NO supports.



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Edited on 15/04/17 @ 13:33:35 by Axel (#6627)

Peach2milk (#4673)

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Posted on
2014-04-18 03:02:41
ok after seeing that explained it does make a bit more sense. sorry kinda slow cause not able to sleep enough at night because im so close to my due date lol.

i do wonder if... maybe instead of just wiping the slate clean of stats. if developers did choose a path such as this. so that not all time was wasted they could implement stats into some of these points? or maybe you say have 100 points to use right away for a 1k stat lion. just a thought :)



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Axel (#6627)

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Posted on
2014-04-19 05:30:17
That is alright. You just had worries. Of course you addressed them. Better have it explained than having these question float around, eh?

I would leave that to the developers. Since max 180 points can be made use of, I think maybe lions above specific age could have this benefit. Like... Lions above 10 years, because as a young lion you can get enough points through its life.

I am also not sure if it is doable due to some lions having over 2000 stats. You would need to give them 200 points, so 20 points go to waste, since only 180 can be used. But even if we add two more abilities... what about lions with 4000 stats?



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Onu [CT] (#23887)

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Posted on
2014-04-19 05:51:11
No support. I like some of your ideas for abilities, but not a whole system revamp.

Stats don't do anything yet, calling it a failure and demanding they re-write a lot of code and make changes when they haven't even fully tested what they were planning... seems a bit premature.

It would be one thing if they finally implemented a use for stats, and the majority of players voiced their dislike. Then I could understand long threads about revamping the whole deal.

But right now? They don't affect gameplay whatsoever other than market price (and that's entirely set by the opinion of players themselves.) There's no reason to be upset by stats, other than the fact that it's taken so long to make them useful.

I'd rather see what their initial plan was, if it works out, and then react to it. You can't rush coding, and we've already waited on stats this long... If they were to totally scrap that for some ability system, how much longer do you think it would take?

I also don't support what is essentially a stat cap with the 180 ability points. In the end, people who stick around long enough will all have identical 180pt lions who look slightly different. That's not competitive, or healthy in the long-term for a game to keep going. They should want to keep people interested for as long as possible, not... "Well, you hit 180, the game's over for you, you can't keep improving your lion."



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Axel (#6627)

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Posted on
2014-04-19 06:01:17
As long as stats are inheritable, the staff can try as they might, I see no true solution to this.

What we saw on the meeting, even they dont exactly know what to do yet with them. Their thought is to give uses to individual stats, which is pretty pointless in itself. Not only can we not work towards specific stats, so cannot work on tactic, but the ever growing stats will in the end create impossible odds in choosing what numbers to base the whole thing on. Please the actives or please the rest. But then again, stats grow, so the whole 'stat use' system will need an at least yearly update to match the current stat growth.

And do not forget, that points wont be easy to get. I have written the list and pretty much you will need to work for them a lot. Most people reach level 26-28 with their lions, which only gives them about 52 points from the 180. Karma can only give you 34 points, which makes it only 86 points from the 180 and basically will be what most players will achieve. The rest means work, which gives the actives something to work for. They can get an additional 94 points, so more than 50% needs effort and gameplay. I am sure no one truly will be able to complete the collection of 180 points.



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Mysticashes (#26903)


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Posted on
2014-04-19 06:21:13
Sorry no support.

I am still pretty new but personally I like stats. And without ever buying GBs (yet, I likely will once I get more things figured out) I have two lionesses with over 1300 stats(about 300 that I have earned myself) and even though they are "useless" I enjoy them.

I think we should wait to see what the staff do with stats. Honestly I am sure they have all the same concerns as you do about the gap between new and old players. If they go about it in the same as they did lionesses fertility I think it could turn out pretty interesting.

What if they did something along the line of different heights of stats did different things. Lower stats would be good at this or that while higher stats would be strong but more likely to try and run away because they are so strong?

I don't know I just know that the staff seem to thing outside of the box (like they did with the mutations giving value to low fertility lionesses) and think we should wait to see what they do before trying to completely remake something that would take a very long time to code and quite a bit of money.



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hachster54 (#31333)

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Posted on
2014-04-19 08:31:37
No support.

The staff are going to come up with something. Have faith in them. They will do their best, and that's all we need. A whole system change could be really confusing, and upset the way some people play the game. Ever heard of the game Howrse? They have a system using stars, on horses, and those are very similar to stats. In Howrse, you do get those elite, active players, and you get the newbies. It's part of any game. But the more elite people have always helped the newbies greatly, and it helps the whole game. Stars run the economy most of the time. Stats seem to work in a similar manner here.

Also, without stats, there would be less reason to breed. Stats are doing a lot for the economy on Lioden. This idea, I'm sorry, could potentially hurt it.



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Axel (#6627)

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Posted on
2014-04-19 08:57:55
@hachster54
Please do not compare Howrse with Lioden. They are entirely different games with completely different gameplay. I have played Howrse a few years ago, and if I would be stuck with my starter horse for months I would have quit the game as soon as I started it.

On Howrse you can have as many horses as you want and can sell your starter horse at any time, and arent stuck with the horses either. On Lioden on the other hand newbies are stuck with their low starter lions and cannot just buy another male lion to replace it at any time. They have to pay GB to do that.

Howrse has its own problems. After they deleted my account for inactivity -which had nice horses with high stars and passes- I looked back and even I -as a usually active and determined player- was scared away by the incredible amount of stars the horses now have.

On Howrse, without stars, your horse isnt worth anything. It cannot win races. Currently at least PVE goes nicely with a starter lion. What do you think what newbies will feel once stats get uses and the best effects will be placed too high for them, which they cannot reach with their starter lions? The starter lions with which they are stuck for months.

So yep, completely different games.



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hachster54 (#31333)

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Posted on
2014-04-19 09:34:52
The starter lions help newbies figure out the game. And you ignored the fact that the more elite members often help the newbies. This will help balance it.

Yes, they are different, but there are similarities. How about the stats running the economy part? I think this change could hurt it.

And why are you so unwilling to give them a chance to make the stats useful? Just because you can't see a way for them to work well, doesn't mean there isn't one.

And you did kind of ignore Mysticashes. The recoding would be difficult, and expensive. And, like I said, it would really confuse some people.



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Edited on 19/04/14 by hachster54 (#31333)

Timothy (AS) (#18706)

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Posted on
2014-04-19 18:05:46
I Still do not support using the newbies as an excuse isn't right either, in ANY game veteran players will have advantage over newbies, and btw if you look at the top leader in the stats at the moment, Naestie hasn't been on here long either and look where she made it? Also I think majority of the players will leave if suddenly all their hard work goes down the drain, yes I know you said not to use this but face it axel, it is a problem. I personally love stats so yeah I do not want this because it took me very long to get these stats, also it keeps me interested in the game, I like seeing how high I can go. With this system there is a cap, I ask then what is the point if everyone will know the cap? Stats have no cap, it shows progression, and until the admins do something for stats (which I suspect they most likely will) it will still show progression, That the game is growing, that players are still interested in the game. It gives newbies a goal (those that want stats of course) It makes them want to be up there themselves, I myself wanted to be on the boards for stats since Day One because it was a goal, an achievement. And I feel many newbies will feel the same way, making the point system will take that progression away really since everyone will once again know exactly how high you can go, which seems pretty useless. As for it not being inheritable... Err what will be the point of breeding then? Markings that everyone will have and no one will buy just like with the specials? Stats kinda even that out if you think about that, because markings can be obtained any way you want to. SO this will hurt the economy MORE than help it.



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Axel (#6627)

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Posted on
2014-04-19 19:14:17
Coding. Bringing in coding as an excuse isnt right either I guess. Since there is nothing coded for stats either, so basically implementing a new system wouldnt mean more work than implementing uses for stats.

As for losing your work on stats... You forget that at the meeting, Abby herself expressed that anything can happen, seeing the game is still in beta. I think she meant maybe a reset might be a possibility in order to create some kind of balance -which in my opinion would be a temporary solution only. And when I suggested a new system, they didnt turn it down. They are looking at it and will decide.

As for progress, there will be no difference between stats and points there. There will be a gap between newbies and oldies, there will be a gap between actives and casuals, so your progress in activity will still show, it will even affect your gameplay. The difference only is that the points reset upon your lion retires.

You also forget that the true problem also IS coming from actives 'flying away' stat-wise. The problem isnt that they also show their progress this way and indeed putting more effort should have its own benefit, but the problem is that they can keep this gap and progress for the next generation, which isnt right. It will only widen the gap if stats stay inheritable. The gap between players is too great to bring in uses for stats. Yes, you say that it shows progress, but sadly the gap is enormous, making uses impossible at its current state.

As for the cap... I wouldnt call it truly a cap. I am sure no one will truly be able to collect 180 points in their gameplay, no matter how active you are. When your lion gets old and maybe you are close to collecting 160 points, your lion in the end will have to retire, and the points will be reset to 0. Then you can start building him again.
But even if you somehow miraculously reach 180 points, it is not like it will stop. You can still keep collecting points, only that you will have nothing to place them into. But again, it will be basically impossible. Maybe upon reaching the impossible 180 points, there could be one more ability unlocked to put the points in. Just to ease the mind of those who doubt.

Your new goal and achievement can be maxing all the abilities and getting 180 points.



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Edited on 20/04/14 by Axel (#6627)

Timothy (AS) (#18706)

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Posted on
2014-04-19 22:11:38
Axel, stats are a part of the game who cares if actives "Fly away" with stats as you say, because they have WORKED for it.if everyone else works for it they will get there too, technically the only gap is between Actives and Casuals as even newbies can have great stats if they are active, and as it will be there will always be a gap between actives and casuals no matter what. And inheritable stats give you another thing to add to breeding that isn't just making the game a pretty kitty game. Honestly if this was ever implemented, or even a stat reset, I would quit as I am sure many others will because then everything so far gained on the game, will be lost. I see you didn't mention anything on my comment that the top leaderboard stud, is a semi new player, which shows you active newbies can get up there too. This isn't necessary at all.

And coding stats in in the first place was a lot of work, redoing all that work into a point system will be MORE work than it will take to start implementing uses for Stats. I would rather see uses for stats, than this new system.



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hachster54 (#31333)

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Posted on
2014-04-20 02:24:24
Yes. That goal would not satisfy me. I would hate to have to restart every time my lion died.

If this was to take place, I would also leave the game, even though NONE of my lions have high stats. I don't want to work, and then once my lion gets old, have it be all lost. I don't like working hard to get somewhere, only to end up at Start again.



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Peach2milk (#4673)

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Posted on
2014-04-20 02:29:44
yea 4k stat lions that would be a very very hard call there lol. only way i guess it would work is if the max amount of points were raised... but even then it might be to much and unbalance :/



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Axel (#6627)

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Posted on
2014-04-20 04:52:32
The leaderboard male you mention probably is a replace male as it is, probably invested a lot of GB into it as well for early retirement or they bought the male with semi-good stats off of someone and patrolled it, and then replaced their main male with it once the time came.

The problem is that from your own work you cannot reach something like that. It is needed to buy high statted lions off of people. I dont like games like that. I like building up my own pride from my own work. But if uses for stats are implemented the way they are.... well.... let us say that the game would lose a lot of hopeless new players and casual players.

Of course, I understand your concern about this, and am also just as worried, however, you have to consider that uses to stats in the current state of stats is impossible.

And about new players: The goal is maybe to make sure they learn how to play the game, but showering them with disappointment isnt the way either. They should be able to build their males as well.

Let us take a look how they could achieve it, according to what they said on the meeting:

- The more stats you have, the more damage/defense/HP you have.
Why is it pointless?
Actives and high statted lions would basically one-hit kill NPCs and other lions in PVP. Stats will continue to grow if they stay inheritable, so soon all lions will one-hit kill NPCs by birth, while new players have to suffer through the system.

- The more stats you have, the more % chance you have for hitting an opponent. So they would pick a base number for a stat...
Eg.: 100 stat in speed gives 50% chance to hit, and 200 stat in speed gives 100% chance to hit.
Currently, it seems nice, since not many lions will have 200 stat in speed. But because stats are inheritable, soon everyone will have lions born with 200 speed. Thus, everyone will have 100% chance to hit by birth.

No matter what you do, enabling inheriting in stats causes a lot of problems.

And indeed a stat reset would be just a temporary solution, since people would just... build it up again, in the end needing a stat reset every once in a while.

who cares if actives "Fly away" with stats as you say, because they have WORKED for it
I would agree with you, if it wasnt for PVE and other aspects of the game. Because in PVP indeed you are battling other players, who can adjust their own stats and indeed can raise their own. But Lioden has far more aspects. Explore, PVE, claiming, etc. These NPCs and features cannot 'adjust their own stats' and raise it to match the incredible gap. Something needs to be done to adjust the stats to a bearable levels or implement a completely new system. Make stats uninheritable or keep the stats but they continue doing nothing and implement a new system. This way you could keep your beloved stats, or have them reset or uninheritable.

You can choose.

@Bandit: Hmm... Or how about a working formula, or a certain % of the stats being transferred to points? So points would not reach their max but on a bearable level, and those who have high stats will get higher points transferred. But not 180 to give a chance for collecting.



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Mysticashes (#26903)


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Posted on
2014-04-20 05:12:48
I see it that if the staff was inventive enough to find a way to make low fertility a valuable thing that they will find a way to make useful stats work without breaking the NCLs.

I really dislike the total resetting of the points. with the inheritable stats you can see the work put into each generation while with the points it would be gone. You would have to restart again...and again without any show of your past hard work.



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