So support. I've been playing this game for over three months, and I'm not about to start all over again. Yes real animals don't have stats, though this is a Game. Yes, I do have more then one girl close to 2,000 stats, but I'm not agreeing because of that. Stats take work, and your queens and kings should take "work" too get to the leader boards.

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I fully support this idea, however, I do think it could use a bit of tweaking, both to flesh out what you have come up with, and placate people who have a propensity to collecting (I.e high stats), and keeping them interested by leaving in some aspects of inheritance.

What if the ability to get points from a certain activity would be able to increase, depending on the heritage of said lion, say from their intelligence, by a certain percentage, but keep it to a certain limit, say 5-10% increases at most, with it being incrementally harder to get to the top percentage, I.e following a reverse parabolic curve. Not perfect, of corse, but food for thought, and can easily be something to aim for, if executed well. On a similar note, as an alternative, the maximum amount of points earned/points cap on stats can be inheritance based in itself. If this, again, is mapped to a parabolic curve, and executed correctly, this should add a goal to pursue, as well, as it is something that can be visibly displayed. While there will always be something better to aim for with this system, due to the theoretical cap and the slowdown as you near it should iron out some of the current problems with the system. Again, not perfect, but it's something to consider.

As admins are planning to bring in cub mortality/mortality through illness(or so I've heard so far), other traits can be inheritable apart from stats, how effective their immune system is. Not only will this bring in an interesting new aspect, depending on how complicated admins would choose to make immune system genetics, but it would also discourage inbreeding/line breeding for choice coats/eye colors/mutations (this is natural/realistic as well, as animals with similar immune systems will tend to breed much less, if at all with those with similar immune systems and/or genetics to them, as they can detect this by scent). I won't get into obnoxious specifics of how the aspects of the immune system are inherited, but it is much less desirable for individuals with similar immune system genetics to reproduce, as their children will have a less varied immune system to battle constantly-evolving viruses. To make this truly realistic, and, to a certain extent, work well, it does get slightly complicated, but doesn't require a great understanding of how genetics works either. All they would need is to take into account a simplified mapping of it, use several alleles that would, together affect the health/immune system of a lion. Anywhere between 3-8 of these would work well, depending on what can be found to correspond with it.

Example of an Allele:
Allele A /Immunity to Disease[each allele can be responsible for a certain major aspect of the immune system/health, and termed as it to make the system simpler for it, such as have a single allele, for simplicity's sake, responsible for immunity to disease, and have others related to other aspects of health, such as hips/joints, teeth, etc]: Value in percentage: 0-100%, with certain percentages corresponding to certain titles, I.e: 0-20%-lethal(death prior to 2 years of age), 21%-40%-poor, etc (this would probably need to be balanced in better increments than 20), with both 0% and 100% being unattainable , as it it in nature and just relative terms (again, percentage system via inheritance would be parabolic).

To make this more of a balanced system, than a direct detriment, lions born with 'excellent' or 'high' in a majority of their stats would live significantly longer than those with 'poor' or 'fair' statuses(as health starts to deteriorate past an animals prime, even the status of teeth is important, as a lot of older lions die due to inability to chew their food), rather than all lions perishing at random in a certain year gap. While I do understand that this system may seem complicated to a lot of people, I do think that it is more due to my inability explain it in an easy-to-process manner rather than it actually being an overly-complicated system. I feel it would add a lot of realism to the game, as well as remove the relatively random age death gap.

Another thing that could, at least, to an extent, be affected by inheritance is impression, as looks (attractiveness/mutation/mane thickness
), health/immune system(animals detect this by scent, and are more attracted to individuals of differing genetics to them) and body type(to an extent, some individuals have more of a propensity to building (bulky) muscle than others) are all inherited from the parents. While a male lion can pick up certain 'moves' during a lifetime, it will never be able to be as attractive to females as a male with a natural propensity to attract them. In terms of realism, this is founded, as multiple studies have shown that healthy strong males with full manes that have a stark contrast to their coat will have the greatest success with females; realistically, this should also deteriorate with age. This, for obvious reasons, will probably not be a popular aspect, as it effectively puts a cap on the impression certain lions can earn, however, in that sense, it is not much different from a stat cap a lion can earn depending on how many stats it started with.

I'll keep thinking about new concepts for this, but the main issue that I can see is that translating stats to a new system will be an issue, as, with the current system, there is effectively no stat cap, so it would be nearly impossible it value in relation to a system with a cap.



As a side note. To those trying to argue that achievements(such as speed for runners, bulk for weight lifters, etc) earned during an individual's lifetime can be inherited with terms they, from what I have read, do not understand, or understand little of, no, you are misunderstanding the concept.

Epigenetics can be used to define two similar concepts that have very different consequences in terms of heritability. It can be either used to describe what you're talking about- /minor/ (yes, there have been examples in the course of evolution where this is not so, but they are few and far between; otherwise, this generally affects things like height/size, or even metabolism, the latter of which is the only thing likely to (minorly) increase initial inborn potential in offspring) changes in the /activity/ of genes that is /not/ caused by a change in DNA sequence, and /is/ therefore heritable, as it affects all cells in the body, including sperm and ovum; however, this generally takes many generations of the same alteration to produce a noticeable effect.

The other concept referred to as epigenetics is a change in tRNA potential (transcriptional potential) of cells that are stable and long term (making them more commonly significant) and are rarely heritable as this change would have to specifically occur in the sperm and/or ovum, and the specific sperm or ovum affected would have to be fertilized for it to give a result, given the alteration isn't in some was affecting the fusion of the ovum and sperm, and later, it's growth.

So in short, no, the inheritance of abilities attained after ones birth, at least in the extent seen on lioden is unrealistic. As a rare mutation, perhaps, as not all mutations are negative things, simply a change in the activity or structure of genes, but it would have to occur much, much rarer than it currently does.

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I think it's also good that there are better players. People need something too look up to. I want to try and get better and better lions. (I'm not good at it tho :P) So it's not only bad that there is a big gap. And yes, as a new player myself, I know that if a game is a year old, there will be people who are better.

I would like to choose where I want the points for my lion, or that they are random. A base value isn't something that I would prefer. All lions are different and I like that part of the game.

Another little system thing, but then you need more stats instead of less :P But also one that I like.
What if you have indead, we say, 18 stats. If you are level 2 you just can't make a your stats higher as the level you are.
So if you are a level 3 and you have 6 points to spare. You can't say; I put everything on damage. Because you can't make it more then 3. But that's just an idea ;)

But it's indeed possible to make the stats just pvp'ish :P But sometimes I think it would be nice that you can choose what you want. If your not a fighter, but a breeder or something X3 And you just want a lot of females, you can choose the role you want to play.

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@Lisim:
I thank you for the nice long review, although I am not sure why the immune system and the alleles are brought into this. The inheritance of stats and points has nothing to do with genetics. And I really wouldnt want to make this complex but simple and easy to follow for everyone.

Also, I doubt the developers will consider bad effects for inbreeding, seeing half if not most lions on Lioden are inbred already. Bringing in bad effects would pretty much affect most players negatively. Lion bloodlines would end quickly. But this idea has nothing to do with inbreeding, or genetics.

I sadly cannot and will not consider inheriting of points, due to not being able to use them if you collect too much anyway. points can only be used to make abilities more effective. For nothing else. One an of course add more abilities thus extend the max points you can use, but this will need testing and to see how many can actually even reach 180 points. Because doubt anyone would. Thus the cap on using points is pretty much nonexistent.

main issue that I can see is that translating stats to a new system will be an issue
Stats will not be put into points. Stats would stay as they are, affecting PVP only. And again, the cap is something that needs testing first in gameplay. I doubt anyone will be able to reach 180 points. If we add inheriting, sure, but if we keep it not inheritable, then it will be basically impossible.

@Puzzlette
Of course, a gap will always exist, but it is one of the problems in making use of stats in non-PVP aspects. The non-PVP features cannot adjust their stats to match the ever growing stats in each generation.
And also, they cannot make a level1 enemy NPC to the same difficulty for a level 1 lion with 15 stats or one with 1500. One will have trouble beating it, the other one-hit kills it. Hence why the statgap is a great problem in this.

About your level block idea: it actually sounds nice to block points to be put into the same ability to max it out early on, however there is a limit on how great your damage is, and if you only concentrate on one ability, you will quickly get an unbalanced lion with a maxed ability but very weak in other aspects, hence why people need a tactic. So I am not sure about the limit. Unlimited point placing would give a chance for people to place their points as they wish and create their own tactics as they go.

As for the ability to choose between stats and ability system -at least I think I understood your last comment right- that would be not so effective. Because stats cannot be made use of in non-PVP aspects of the game, due to the enormous gap and the growth.

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I brought genetics into it as a point of what could be added for players to aim for instead of going for stats, though otherwise, I do understand where you're coming from. I'll have more of a think on the topic later to see how to iron things out both for people aiming to breed for a certain goal, and a smoother experience for new players. If some simple aspects of health are brought into lioden, it'll give another incentive to breed and work for, though not as active as stats.
Keeping them for PvP only does work, but wouldn't it be a bit cluttered/complicated with both systems?

In terms of inheriting points, how about inheriting the point cap that can be used, say breeding from a point cap of 40 or 60 to something better? That poses it's own problems, of course, but, in a way, is more 'true' to the current system, so it would give high stats players something to aim for. You could still enforce a max cap of 180, but that probably won't even be necessary, as, with what you've said, people will be hard-pressed to get anywhere near that number, so a higher cap wouldn't mean much if anything if gone higher.

To be honest, don't see as much of a problem with inheriting this, or the slight 'bonus' percentage gain I brought up before. If you keep the limit at around the 5-10% range, it would give enough of an advantage to give players a goal for the long run without having all the problems if the currents stat system was assigned to specific combat abilities, same for the concept of impression, or an impression cap being inherited, though I do see it irritating some people.

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I just gonna say that I do like this idea and that I support. The only thing that most people don't like about it is that when a lion dies you have to start over... Maybe something can be done about that, that you just get something; Maybe and extra skill point for your new lion? Just something that makes sure all the effort you have put in your old lion isn't wasted. I have read a lot posts and stuff but not everything, so I am not sure if you already posted something about that. ;p I just don't like the idea that, now, we have stats but they do nothing. I won't even try to get lions with high stats now because that is extremely useless.

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I love this. This is perfect!

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I don't support this either. As the reasons before me have said repeatedly but I also have a few ideas myself.

I also have been reading this for awhile. I don't agree with the tone of this thread or the way it's being defended. As soon as someone disagrees with you , you go off on a tangent or get really defensive. Which is causing a lot of friction with your guests. You opened a public opinion thread. One must accept people disagreeing. Instead of calming saying things or accepting that. It's been worse. I'd simple say it's alright to have your opinion but I don't agree with you, sorry and move on. However that's far from what I've seen on this suggestion thread. It's one of the reasons I'm posting. Though I'm pretty sure the negative reception it's not going to get very far.

I left and came back. I was a newb when I came back. Stats might be useless but it's really the only goal we have at this point. So far the sites doing well with new members. I haven't seen people quit. I've seen some take breaks but they seem to return. It's not overly complicated either. I get this amount of stats for doing this amount of work. That be selling lions or me training them. *shrugs*. It's progress regardless. Even if I buy a high stated male. I had to work through the economy to get the cash. It just means I'm good at that instead of leveling. That's another reason I don't like this either. This creates one type of playing style. Your style. Not pretty lioness style. You wouldn't be able to sell pretty lions on it's soul image of beauty. Only this abilities trained lionesses. No one wants to sit here and train what there trying to get rid of. I know I wouldn't. I've quit games that had that implemented.

Your kind of trading one evil for another. Your going to upset the players statters don't see often.

~~~~~~~~~

I've never seen a game like a virtual pet site implementing a restart each time they succeed , type of system. Humans don't like there achievements pulled down. People don't like effort torn down. It has negative effects on the brain. Why do you think most games have a reward system for doing tasks? It gives good chemicals to the person's brain. They like the chemicals. lolz This is our happiness on a microscopic level of truth you can pull up a text book on it. Chemical dictate a lot of our reactions and our feelings. Even our health is effected by chemicals the body produces. Taking away a persons achievement over and over will releases negative feelings.

The site would surely die off on the subconscious of the mind alone. Once a person associates something with negativity it's hard for them to accept it beyond that. I don't really need to argue the rest on the simple fact of human mind. This is why video games don't stray from a reward system. You might die in a game but you have save points. Your items fall where you died last. Newer games have learned to only set them back slightly instead of entirely on a level. Those whole level restart games didn't do to well in sales.

It's like a toddler playing with blocks. They make a tower and are happy. What this would do is knock over those blocks. The toddler would cry or be upset. It most likely would associate you with negative feelings and dislike you for a period of time.

~~~~~~~~~~

Also This sounds like a grinders dream. There's a reason why grinder games are altered when they come to America. Korea is famous for hard and long grinder games. There audience eats it up truely! When Korean games are translated and brought here. They always alter the game play. I haven't seen a game go unaltered. Gamers in the US in majority don't enjoy super hard and long grinders. They tweak the exp gain to better fit the majority. So it'll sell and make people happy. XD You can look up some Korean games that were brought to the US. Play them both and there is a difference. Korean exp gain tends to be lower and US tends to be what we perceive as normal progress.

I have played both US and Korean games. I love the the idea they make out there that we haven't even touched on in the US. Though it seem US games focus on different areas but that's another topic.

I don't like grinders. I have to grind my male. I have to grind my females. I even have to grind the cubs I want to get rid of. That isn't fair to anyone really. There is a seesaw between grinding and leisure play. With the current game play. Both can co exist peacefully. People don't have to grind. They can breed cute lions with horrible stats. We still make a living because people like pretty cats. We sell to each other on some sub level of economy. Then there is the stat Economy. People souly buy stat lions and grind them till there giants. xD Staters buy from staters. Pretty lions buy from pretty lions. Occasionally these lines will cross like anything. This econ isn't destroyed. It's divided between 2 types of game play. I seem to get just fine with my small under 150 stat male. XD Even before I edited him or his brother. I had cute females and I was happy. They make cute ugly cubbies. Then I out sourced to studding. Oh look money gets spinned around in the econ bowl. xD I get even more cuter cubs.

This is going to restrict gamers like me. This is going to push out gamers like me. There are sites that have no such thing as stats. There soul purpose is to look pretty. Those sites are doing good. The economy has its problems but pretty feline always sell. It's a rush to buy those feline. It's the ugly ones that kind of clog up the system. xD But that's just a learning curve most figure out. Then there fine and do well. XD

We aren't all statters in this game. D: Some of us don't have the time to level lions. We don't have the time to level cubs we want to sell. Most of us have a urgent get this out of here feeling. I think you only see one side to this coin your flipping between your fingers. You don't see the gamers like me. Who play at there leisure. We don't buy into stats or abilities. We souly come here to breed and sell. And it works! Your statted feline don't effect our business. Our business doesn't effect yours.

You guys are screaming what about the newbs! The newbs can do fine. D: They just need help on how to gain sb in this game. I started with nothing!! Nothing! As many did before me and still do now! My ID number is low but I returned maybe 2 months ago? After being away so long. When the site didn't have half the stuff it does now. Statted lions didn't exists back then. High statted lions didn't scare me away. I didn't need them. I don't need them. They don't do anything for me. All I need is a few cats and I can make sb. That's how many of these statted lions were born and raised. Human Parents started with nothing and made it into something. There all proud of there creations even if it was bought. They raised the money to buy them and hunted them down. They altered them to be the perfect little kittens they always wanted! q-q

Your basically forcing a community of people you don't see to do grinding when they never had to do it before. Newbs might not buy high stated felines off the back. They buy from us breeders because we have to lower our prices to dirt. Our pretty lions soon fill newbs banks and then they start selling pretty lions. Then they can choose to go higher with stats. They can buy those high stated lions because they worked for it. I don't see a gap. I see a bridge people must take to go up. This is far from a destroyed economy. It's actually healthy.

There's always going to be people on top. There's always going to be people on the bottom. Then the majority is the middle classes. People are managing to get by in this econ. Even if you think its horrible. I've been on sites and mmo's where the econ so terrible that nothing sells. The only way to make money is to progress in the game inch by inch or become an obsessive collector of craft able items. Though you might as well pick your poison because they end up being the same level of grinding. There is never going to be equality because its human nature to be the top.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think the site owners and admins and even mods will come up with something that will be fair to both parties of players. These are some of the best mods and admin I've seen across the board of pet sites. I can say that because I've been to many many many pet sites!! There either driven with power, or rude, or just plain money hungry. I've seen some terrible things go down in other sites.

I was in that meeting just like you. Your making them sound bad. Like they don't know anything or care. I can tell you this is a very successful game they have groomed and raised. It's doing far better then other beta sites that started before them! These people care what we have to say! I could tell you all the sites I've been on where a mod has done something horrible to a player and unjustified. This site is so clean! This site isn't chaos! It's a pretty peaceful place. I love the community here as I've rejoined it. They have created something with love and care. There thinking and trying as I type! I know it!

From the sound of there voices! I know they care! I know there trying! I know they feel for us! They want to make it better! There going to do it in a way they think its fair to all!

I don't even know most of the mods on a personal level but I can tell you they are good people! >..< I've never seen them abuse or chase newblets away. All of my questions even dumb ones have all been answered in sweet or understanding ways. Even the community is sweet!

They are trying there best to get this place running fairly. They have a lot on there plate. They are allowed to make mistakes. They are allowed to grow at there own pace. >< They are even allowed to make purple lions fly across the screen if they wanted too!



~NiMo

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@Lisim
Keeping them for PvP only does work, but wouldn't it be a bit cluttered/complicated with both systems?
I dont think it would be complicated. Stats would simply stay for PVP, while everything else is affected by the abilities. PVP and PVE simply would be separate. This is the only way I can see it work. Stats simply are not fit for PVE aspects the way they are at the moment.

In terms of inheriting points, how about inheriting the point cap that can be used, say breeding from a point cap of 40 or 60 to something better?
You mean the point cap per level? Hmm... that is something to think about. Well, if they do implement a level point-distribution cap. But again, I am not sure a cap like that would be a good idea.

@Maddoka
The only thing that most people don't like about it is that when a lion dies you have to start over...
You would still have stats to inherit, which would affect your PVP. PVE aspects however would be dependent on strictly uninheritable points. The problem is that the NPCs or the claiming NCLs part cannot adjust their own stats and effects to adjust to a nonstop growth. If inheriting is enabled at points, then everyone would quickly reach the 180 they can distribute. Even be born with 180 points later... That wouldnt be fun. Maybe a slight % of skill inheritance could be added indeed, but that is up to the developers to decide. After all, skill and experience is gained through life.

@NightMother
I don't agree with the tone of this thread or the way it's being defended. As soon as someone disagrees with you , you go off on a tangent or get really defensive.
No, not defensive. My idea is simply questioned and people have questions, worries, to which I -as the creator of the idea- must answer. I have to explain why an addition cannot work, why stats cannot work in PVE, and why points are a good idea. If you post a suggestion and people dont seem to understand it or dont know why the current system is bad, you would also try to explain. It might seem defensive and a little negative due to me getting right to the point and explaining the problem and its solution over and over. There is a problem. There is a reason why stats wont work in PVE and I am trying to explain to people why. I see it clearly, I can tell, and feel obligated to try and open the eyes of the other members too to it.

This creates one type of playing style. Your style. Not pretty lioness style. You wouldn't be able to sell pretty lions on it's soul image of beauty.
There are stats right now and pretty lions. There will be stats, abilities and pretty lions. Nothing changes in the gameplay for this. People will still buy and sell pretty lions to their heart's content. Only that you have to aim to sell them early on in their lives. maybe as adols so others can hunt and train them to be successful. My comment about having to train lionesses is for the other type of market which favors gameplay over beauty already.

I've never seen a game like a virtual pet site implementing a restart each time they succeed , type of system.
Stats would stay inheritable. That is your reward. That you can succeed in PVP. If you are more of a PVE type of player, then indeed I see no true solution to this but to make points uninheritable. The problem is that in PVE the NPCs, NCLs, explore etc cannot adjust their own effectiveness to the ever growing stats and to a gap. If you have any solutions in mind, please make sure to suggest how stats can be made use of in PVE or how and what the ability system could inherit. Because it is one thing to complain, another is to have a full out suggestion to back you up.

Btw, you gameplay would not entirely reset. Your pride, your lionesses, your territory would still stay the same as they were inherited from your previous lion. So not everything would be reset. Only the points and the abilities. Think about how the skill and the Karma is reset. No one is complaining about those.

(About MMOs on the internet: Those are level, and PVP based mostly. If you make a new character, you start out completely new without any additional rewards as well. You build the character up and follow a level-stat balance, where mobs also follow this difficulty. Thus these games work very well. The same system however cannot be used on Lioden due to PVE. And Lioden is also a grinding game if you concentrate on stats only, so there is not much change. There is simply a basic gameplay which you registered for. Lioden isnt a pretty kitty breeding game primarily, but a sim game in which you need to survive. Thus yes, the basic game aspects need to be played, which alone will grant you advance even with this system.)

I don't like grinders. I have to grind my male. I have to grind my females. I even have to grind the cubs I want to get rid of.
Simple gameplay enables you to survive. If you are a casual player then you can still nicely play and build your lion. Of course your lion wont be as successful as those of the actives", but that is the same way right now as well. Grinding females... Nah. You simply need to send them to hunt as you do now. There is no grinding involved. Cubs... they cannot be trained, neither can they gain points. Stats will be still inherited so you can sell them for PVP players, or if it is pretty you can still sell them for their looks. Nothing changes for that. You simply keep playing the way you do now and see what your lion achieves over his lifetime.

You guys are screaming what about the newbs! The newbs can do fine.
Right now? Yes. If uses to stats are given the way they proposed in the meeting? Not so much anymore. They wouldnt be able to survive on this game with their starter lions. Or they would make it all too easy for high statted ones. This is a problem.

I have no doubt that the developers will think of something, but I cant help but notice that in order to make it work for both -many- parties, then PVE and PVP must be separated and made to be dependent on different systems to make it work. Stats in their current form are unable to have balanced uses in PVE.

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It's that tone you address people with. I've ignored it for now because I wanted to discuss this ability system with you. I like the idea of it. I like the work you put into it. However it has some flaws I wanted to address. I understand the feeling to try and open peoples eyes. But reading your responses your being a bit aggressive to a sensitive subject. Sitting in other people's shoe your trying to take away the value they invested time and effort into. One must try to do both. Try to understand people while also trying to persuade them. I'm a sensitive person. The tones I read aren't just blunt. They have undertones. This is how you are perceived to people like me. I've always been in beta games and in suggestion forums. I've defended ideas and I've also submitted to defeat. I've also been aggressive in the past but I learned in debate. It's not aggression that wins you the discussion.

I don't know about all of this. There's no true way to measure which gamer style is dominating this game. I know a lot of people have bought Male Lions instead of trained them. I don't think this site is as dominated by grinders as you think.

Also if there always reset after there new heir. There isn't really a point in doing all the training. Like, If I did use this system all my hard work goes to nothing at the end of it all. If abilities and points are never passed onto the next generation. What's the point of training and fighting? There isn't a real reward at the end of the effort. Only temporary bragging rights. It might keep people entertain but it would lose interest. It doesn't effect offspring or future generations.

There no tower to climb. Like stats show progress. My King is low but I trained his heir myself. The cub was maybe 20 Stats at birth and I trained him to about 200 by the age of 5. I climb over my King with the cub. The next generation is going to be stronger then my old Sithis. That's how statted lions came to be. That's there progress in the game currently. That's there goals.

What goals do we gain with this? We train them to only start over again? We have nothing to latch onto that shows us progress anymore. This might have a balance between new and old but we don't live in a perfect world. People like being on top. They like being the best they can be. That's a healthy economy.

I like the idea of abilities but I don't like this cut system. Your trying to please grinders but the more I think about it. This may end up damaging there game play more then mine. People will always find something to value in a game. Look at chicken smoothie's currency. This amount of pets = one pet. The game didn't have a game currency to begin with. So people ended up making there own and the game followed with features to cater to it.

When this game was young and stats didn't exist. Pretty marking lionesses were dominate. People found value in there lionesses. They found something to barter. It could be passed down to more generations. This is a investment players could hold.

As stats started to form over time. People saw they could control it. They could manipulate it to fit there needs. This is why pretty lions started to go down in value. You have less control over how a lioness looks like. Vs you could control the outcome of your lion's stats. Train them and even breed them to become better. I could force 2 clones on lioden to mate and they'd end up with ugly cubs because of the breeding system. Less control diminished pretty's value over time.

Abilities and points have no true investment at the end. XD It would turn into a pretty lioness website again. lol (I wouldn't mind that one bit!) They'd have more reward for how a lioness looks over how strong it is again. XD Hmm Though if thats whats going to happen. I would just remove all of the battling system together along with stats and abilities. Then pretty lions would rein!

Because this kind of feels like a flash game without coins at the end. xD We play it cause we're bored. See how high we go. What happens when people reach that high. There's no true reward at the end of there efforts.

What would reward the player after raising a lion in this system? Is my question now. xD The abilities and points are temporary. What does a player have. Something they can hold onto no matter what? Just pretty balls of fur at the end? I know grinders wouldn't just want cute balls of fur. xD They either leave or convert to pretty lionesses. XD

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Seriously... People write and talk differently. If you find basically any tone offensive, then I suggest you try and work on that sensitivity a little. Actually, people tend to annoy me with such comments. So I indeed might sound a little blunt and offensive here. So how about we just drop this? It has nothing to do with the idea anyway.

My idea is made to accommodate each player style.
There are three kinds of players on Lioden and it does not hinder them in enjoying their gameplay.

1. Grinders, PVP players. These people are the ones who train their lions hard every day in order to have great stats and beat other lions and have bragging rights so to say. Stats will not vanish. They will still play a role in PVP, so these players can continue their play-styles. They can collect stats, let them be inherited, train their submales and indeed be better than other lions. Their gameplay is not hindered in any way, shape, or form.

2. PVE players. These players like the gameplay itself. Explore, hunt, sell food, just wish to play the base game and ignore PVP altogehter, knowing their activity and their development would not let them compete in that field. These players at the moment are ignored by gameplay, since the whole explore, NPC fights, NCL claiming is random and boring. These players wish for more interesting gameplay, to know that the effort and time they invest into playing is rewarded. They would be, with the thanks of being able to earn points as they play. Their gameplay would be enchanted and become interesting.

3. Pretty lion breeders. These players usually ignore PVP and PVE, and simply concentrate on breeding lions for looks which they can sell in the end. Seeing that you cannot train lions in their adolescence or cubhood anyway, both those who seek pretty lions and those who seem lions for gameplay will still buy their lions. They are not hindered in any way and can continue their gameplay. (However lions who have enough points, have good looks and high stats would be indeed more valuable)

So indeed all playerstyles are taken into consideration and the idea does not hinder any of them. All playerstyles are free to carry on undisturbed.

About progress: It will be shown not only in stats as they continue affecting PVP, but also as you build your lion with points and maxing out abilities. Points show your personal effort on the lion in its lifetime. You can show off both stats and points, whichever you find important.

What goals do we gain with this? We train them to only start over again? We have nothing to latch onto that shows us progress anymore. This might have a balance between new and old but we don't live in a perfect world. People like being on top. They like being the best they can be. That's a healthy economy.
I wouldnt call what we have at the moment a healthy economy. But anyway.
Once again, progress in gameplay through the generation is shown by the stats as they continue to exist to affect PVP. Your PVE progress is also shown through the lifetime of the lions. They are simply separated. As for the gap you are talking about... indeed it is going to exist, but it is another thing that it stands in the way of implementing effective uses to stats in the PVE aspect. I have explained why in many of my posts before so I will not repeat it again. Stat gap is good when players compete against one another. However, the gap becomes a hindrance when it comes to a competition against the game, where features and NPCs have a set difficulty per level.

Your trying to please grinders but the more I think about it. This may end up damaging there game play more then mine.
The ability system is to please the population which would like to see their gameplay more interesting and their efforts being rewarded for the PVE gameplay.
If you think about it, stats also need grinding, so the stat system also promotes and helps grinders, thus I am asking for nothing new at all. Pretty lion breeders already have the many colors and markings, tolls to play with, PVP players have stats they can compete with. This idea simply gives PVE players something to work for. If you like to breed pretty lions, then by all means do so. No one will stand in your way. If you like stats and PVP, then go ahead and collect stats. You basic gameplay will simply provide points anyway as you advance in the game.

Abilities and points have no true investment at the end.
It is not meant to. You start over in order to balance PVE gameplay and to make it work. Otherwise I see no other way to make PVE interesting and playable with a system that isnt heavily depending on luck and randomness. If points become inheritable, they would be like stats. But yes, you will continue having stats.

What would reward the player after raising a lion in this system?
This is a question I am still waiting the answer for. I know and have read many complaints about this feature missing but received no suggestions yet on this matter. So if you have any ideas, feel free to share it with me and we can work something out together.

Again:
- All playerstyles can and will exist with this system.
- This system simply gives PVE players something to do.
- Stats stay and affect gameplay.
- Progress is shown in stats and points.
- Competition continues to exist.
- Ideas on what can be a reward with this system?

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I don't think that there will be an unbalanced lion with the 'block' system ;)
Because if you have 18 abilities and you HAVE to choose with your 4 points which one you give one point. If you are level 6 and you already have an ability totally maxed for your level, then you have too choose another ability.
I see unbalanced when you can choose to set all your points at one ability. Something you can't do with this system. ;)
Sorry, I'm not english and if you don't get it. Also, I think it would be fun if indeed people can use the stats, but also the ability system ;)

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A very interesting idea. Personally, I breed more for looks then stats, so I don't feel too strongly about your system or keeping the current one anyway, so I don't think I'll be supporting. I will say that whether the current stats have uses or not, it would suck to have worked on your lion so they have such high stats only to have them reset. There's a sentimental value to consider as well.

However, I really admire the amount of thought put into this! Well done! :D

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Thank you for the feedback, people.

Puzzlette: It is not about unbalancing, but about giving the people the freedom of choosing. To choose the way they want. To choose right or to choose wrong. Yes, they might end up maxing out an ability at level 5, but they will have a single maxed out ability... and a bunch of disadvantages when they notice that other abilities arent active.

Hmm... A new idea came to mind. What if upon maxing out the abilities of one section -for example claiming- there would be a group of 3 more abilities you could max out. This way one can be sure that if people -miraculously- reach the 180 placeable points, they still can keep going.

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i have to say.. since this new update.. im much more supportive of this then ever.

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