I do not see how me asking for information or stating I respected your opinion was rude, but I suppose each takes their own from text. You can't read emotion over text.

I'm not saying I don't understand why submales were introduced originally, I get that. Games are meant to develop, no? If everything stayed the same for the exact intended purpose games wouldn't become more fleshed out. Change isn't a bad thing all the time and sometimes it does good to look into possible changes.

To your first number five I feel you're implying your own opinions and views onto the game and matter. By all means you're welcome to it's a game that people can play various ways. I however do not see the game and certain aspects of it the way you do. I don't see how patience factors in with anything in my suggestion, but alright then. No matter how patient I am the game as it is now will never let me breed my current submale, because I don't want him to be the heir. He will not ever become a heir and there fore is utterly useless. Why let him gain stats if he will be and do nothing? And even then why have multiple sub male slots an option? You can't possibly have all of your sub males become a 'leader' due to ages and what not. Say I have 3 sub males. My main male dies and I choose my youngest sub to be the new leader and heir. During that leaders life time the other two sub males will not become leaders and have no purpose at all. It was mentioned sub males would have more roles and purpose in the future in a news article some time back. Like I said all games change and update over time as concepts and ideas are fleshed out. If the staff weren't open to changes there'd be no suggestion board. This is what this is; a suggestion.

1/2. - I don't see what would be wrong with high stats, it get rid of or help with the lower end cubs floating around the market. Honestly it'd all depend on how you played the game. I'm also not sure how stats would be easy to obtain via breeding. You still have to train your sub male to get stats, so it wont be like everyone has high stated sub males.

3. Not everyone plays the game as you and not everyone has the money and effort to gather that much in the game. So no not everyone can spend or afford that much.

4. How is it not fair to the main male? We are talking about pixels here, right? As you said it is a game so I do not feel it'd be right to say something is or isn't fair to a pixel drawing and string of coding. If you read the first post there are ideas and options to make it more 'fair' like restrictions for breeding and what not. Perhaps if the past news posts were true and sub males are given a bigger purpose in the game they wouldn't "sit around and patrol for 15 minutes'.

5. You're wording confuses me greatly here? I'm not sure what you mean fully.

6. Going to add in with what I said for number 4 here as well. Everyone. Plays. The. Game. Differently. Some people like the sole purpose of having a pride, some people like the forums and socializing, others like selling and breeding lions and there are already people who breed for stats and appearance in this game. So I'm not sure.. how that'd really change anything? If the restrictions in the first post as ideas were added in there'd be no 'neglecting' your main male (though I still don't see how to neglect pixels). Maybe the sub male could only breed one cub from each time, or breed solely within the pride or have a cool down of some sort.

7. Whether they pay the GB or not does not address my situation or points I brought up. If they want to keep their current main lions looks on their 'heir' they need to overwrite the coding and appearence of their sub male, yes? Some people like the way their sub male looks but at the same time enjoys and wont erase what look their main lion has. Do you.. see what I'm getting at?

Again I respect your opinions, but I feel as if I'm just repeating myself to you. x: So be that as it may I wont reply to anything else you say unless it somehow betters the suggestion or brings up a new idea or concept.

You are however welcome to agree or disagree with my suggestion as you see fit. I just don't see the point in arguing with you nor do I want to. This is a a simple suggestion so arguing over it honestly isn't right- I don't want to start any drama.

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I don't see how patience factors in with anything in my suggestion, but alright then.
Patience is a factor in that you actually have to wait for your main to retire in order to breed your submale when he becomes leader. if you cant wait for that long, then pay 10GB and off you go. You have a male with the desired stats and markings to breed.

I don't want him to be the heir. He will not ever become a heir and there fore is utterly useless...
Then why in all seven seas do you have him as a heir? Why are you even complaining?

Why let him gain stats if he will be and do nothing?
Well, in your unique case he is going to do nothing. Explain to me again why you have your submale again? Because in everyone else's case this submale actually gains stats and is prepared to become the next king, thus isnt useless and sitting around.

And even then why have multiple sub male slots an option? You can't possibly have all of your sub males become a 'leader' due to ages and what not.
Sometimes people like the look of many males in the pride. Sometimes they cant choose which young male they want as an heir, so choose many at the same time and depending as time goes and their taste changes, they will choose one of the many, while the rest remains either submale or is chased.
I myself have two submales sometimes. One is going to be the heir, so training, the other just is my permanent submale who -after my male dies and my other submale became king- will continue patrolling and getting my items and carcasses. many do the same thing. Buying submale slots after all is optional. You buy as many as you feel like having. No one forced you to buy 3 slots.

I don't see what would be wrong with high stats, it get rid of or help with the lower end cubs floating around the market.
That will be nice and sweet, however we already have hyper mega statted lions, we dont need an increase in their stats at such short time.
And how can they achieve speed statting? Look at my previous or so post where I wrote down how a submale can be used to abuse your system.

Not everyone plays the game as you and not everyone has the money and effort to gather that much in the game.
Not everyone can. Not everyone will, but there will be persistent breeders who will abuse the system as it is. If they want, they gather 1000s of SBs on a single day by trading.

How is it not fair to the main male?
The main male's purpose:
- He protects the territory and females.
- he patrols the territory
- he explores and brings back carcasses, items
- he gains stats, although slowly and impression
- he lures females into his pride
-he breeds as a reward and plays a leading role in the genetics of the game.
Basically you would take one right of the lead male. I wonder how important that would make him in the eyes of the players if he loses his sole right. In the game you concentrate and play your male. Not your submale. Deal with it.

Some people like the way their sub male looks but at the same time enjoys and wont erase what look their main lion has. Do you.. see what I'm getting at?
I know were you are getting at, but this would trash the site's income in so many ways. The main income is through cutsomization. I ask you: Who would customize their male if they can just switch between coats, or keep both males for breeding? Get my point?

In point four I was talking about the importance of the lead male. If the male you are supposed to play is taken one of the rights he should hold as only one, then tell me why he has the word 'main' in the name? You are playing him, and not your submale. Concentrate on him and let your submale gain stats.

Okay another problem:
1. Submales can gain stats infinitely. More than once a day, thus making them stats gain machines.
2. They can have incredible stats by the time they reach a certain age, even halfway through their lives.
3. The only way these males can breed is if they are released from submale status and made a main male, thus taking the ability to gain stats rapidly, actually setting a limit to it by age and status.
4. Now if people can breed the submales, who would be so incredibly stupid and an idiot to replace their main male with their submale, if that submale gains stats like crazy and you can actually breed them?

See my point?
People would abuse this beyond belief. No one would want to replace their mains, would want to play their subs, breed them, gain stats, etc. There would be extra mega unnaturally incredible 1000000s stats on a male in no time. And THAT is going to make stats mean nothing and easy to get, make new players feel even more intimidated by the sheer stats of the males and their subs.

This system could be abused more than one way, so I would suggest this wont be taken into consideration.

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Lazslo, what about the suggestion of having several looks to choose from ONLY when your submale takes over the pride? Maybe make it cost like 1 GB or a high SB amount to store up to 5 designs. Then if you don't want to lose your oasis custom design, you just can only have one on your male, but you still have access to the other one?

Since this post was mainly about looks and not about stats, I just thought I'd bring this up again since it's been buried in the stats debate. xD

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@CharleyHorse- I'm confused abit on your suggestion. x3 Do you mean it'd be stored away from your main male that you could choose from no matter what in the future? Or would it be stuck to a single male only for a time so they could swap pelts when they wanted? Either way I'd be ok with that.

@Lazslo-

I already said I wasn't going to reply- so I'll only address the questions and points directed towards me. I feel I talked about and said my peace about your other issues plenty of times.

I said patience does not matter with what I'm addressing, no matter how patient I am it will not solve the issues I bring up.

Why do I have him as a heir? Because without finding the informaiton to it's fullest and not fully understanding how it all worked I paid for a male with 1,000 SB. I was under the idea that hey maybe I'd get to us this pretty male in the future to breed witin my pride or use his looks in someway after my male died. I assumed the game had it all planned out already and I'd have options like maybe my custom males coat being saved or something. But no I find out that the only way my customs coat will be saved is if it overwrites that appearance of my sub male. Which I thought hey that's not totally fair. I paid real money for my males custom coat so ofcourse I'd carry it over- but then that made me buying my sub male totally void and useless. It was my own foolishness and newbie naiveness that caused this to happen, but hey- it happened. Why not try and change it and prevent from happening to others. So I got ideas and thus this thread and suggestion was born.

I also do not personally feel it'd trash the sites income, people will still use GB for other things and everyone will more then likely always want to have pretty, fancy custom lions. Custom lioness designs have no way of being saved at the moment, so people will always be creating or seeking to create new custom females- I know I will.

Personally I do understand how sub males gain stats faster then the main- but at the same time I feel as if the main having more options to gather stats should be an option down the road.

Instead of repeating the same points of what is wrong about this suggestion, do you have any ideas to make it better or your own suggestions to fix the problem without messing up stats?

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Clarifying for Charley:

Options right now are
a) keep main male's looks and replace with submale.
b) keep submale's looks and replace with submale.

Adding in a third and fourth option would look like:

You have 5/5 Appearance Slots Available, would you like to:

c) replace main male's looks and save them to storage?
d) retain main male's looks and save submale's looks to storage?

Does that clarify? You'd have 5 "templates" so it were, and if you had a really ugly submale that you wanted to take over the pride for stats you'd have up to those 5 designs to choose from when replacing. Meaning you could re-use any of your saved old looks in the future, but you still only have one male. It would prevent losing money on customization if you have a pretty submale, but also keep you from losing those looks forever.

I don't think you should be able to switch at will, or maybe you can for a GB fee of like 5 GB or something? Because it's not a full customization or a replacement, it's just a swap out.

Edit: Basically exactly what Kimakishi said, just rephrasing it since it turned into this huge zoo of fighting over definitions and original purposes and whatnot.

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Ah that's what I assumed they meant, either way that's a good idea and solution too c:

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The solution is simple:
Do not make submales breedable. Because not only would they mess up stats, but also would take away the importance of the main male. People would give more attention to the submales, leaving the lion they are supposed to be playing rusting.

I am sorry that you werent clear on what you jumped in when you bought your submale, but may other people are stood in front of the choice and they do choose between coats. They also bought it for money, and made the choice.

It is extremely easy to get another submale for your heir and extremely easy to get the 1GB from SBs to get back that 'real money' you lost. I myself wouldnt trash the market and economy of the whole site for five dollars.

As for coats, now what was suggested above might be a good enough solution instead of breeding submales. Pay 5GB to keep one of the designs saved, and there ya go. But to make sure people dont have a bunch of saved pelts, you should be able to only back up a single design. No more.

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I don't see a problem with having 5 saved, like Paar suggested.

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The problem is, that if there are too many designs saved, then where does the site get its income? Most of its income is coming from customizing. And if you can save up to 5 designs, then what? You wont feel the need to try anything else, since you have 5 designs neatly stacked away.

I see 5 designs saving problematic at studding and breeding. So... which design should be breedable and with what limit? What if you send a studding request to someone because like the design, then right before they accept it, they change the design, thus the cub will have a different design than what you were looking for.

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That can happen anyway when people replace their males, so I don't see how it's more risky this way?

And the site will generate income because not everyone is going to want to keep the looks of a random submale. I personally would love to re-customize my male, but losing the current look is a real bummer, since I paid GB for that one as well, PLUS I have a submale that's aging up who is gorgeous and I'd like his looks too. That's 15 GB from saving all three designs plus 44 GB for both of the customizations, 10 for replacing my male early, and just like that the site's made over 70 GB just off of me. Plus if I want to change the looks it'll cost me more GB, so again, they're making a profit.

If it makes you feel any better they could make a cooldown period similar to what they already have for replacing males, 30 days between design swaps or an extra 15 GB (or 10, depending on cost to swap looks), so you can't just switch back and forth ten times a day?

Edit: The design that would be breedable would be the one your male is set to.

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And to add on to above the design is set once a stud request is sent, sort of like.. current stats when sending a request. Once you send that request for whatever design the male has you'll get that design. Just like if you send a request your stat gains throughout the day wont affect the breeding, the stats are bred with the way they were when you requested.

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I support this and do not think most of the objections are particularly relevant. Many things have changed as the game has developed. I am also confused about how this would flood the market as there would be the same amount of lionesses with the same cool down period, just being bred to different males. If you feel like you would neglect your main or it wouldn't be 'fair', hey, don't breed to your sub, easy as that.

I especially support being able to keep various versions of your main's looks in a sort of 'storage' until your next retirement. I know I personally have customized my male twice, and it would be nice to be able to utilize both of the designs I paid for.

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Kercyri, my problem with submale breedicng is that indeed people would forget that their main is the one they are playing, thus he would lose importance.

Plus the rapid stat gain for subs would be abused like hell. No one would want to retire their mains and would replace them with insignificant lions in order to keep their breeding lion a sub and let them gain stats like no tomorrow.

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That is simply untrue. I believe that one of the developments being worked on (and I may be completely wrong) would make stats important while exploring and fighting npcs, or at least giving them some meaning. If this is the case, people will need to make their more high-stated subs their mains in order to progress through the game. Which is, actually the point. This is not supposed to be a breeding sim. Instead, it should be played based on attempting to unlock explore levels, which is the whole point in getting high-stated mains. As it is, stats don't really have any meaning anyway (even pvp is based on skill) so why would quick stat gains have any impact on game play?

Regardless, if studding remained something you could do only with your main ( and it should) this would be another reason for players to retire males with low stats.

Also, you still seem to be imposing your own game play preferences on others. If I want to ignore my main and focus on my sub, why shouldn't I be able to? It's my pride, my game, and my choice - not yours.

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But the game has a natural order and flow.
If you breed your sub and not your main, then what is the point in retiring it?

I know that the main gameplay isnt breeding -however many seem to think otherwise- but people would abuse the system in order to at least get a super male cub with 100000s stats before they start true gameplay.

There are always the breeders who dont care about the gameplay itself -exploring, NPC fighting, etc etc etc- but simply get their money from breeding high statted cubs.

I know that the development team is trying to make stats mean more, but I ask you this: What will stats mean if everyone has high stats? If everyone can get a 1000stats male easily? Where is the competition? Where is that charm of the game where gaining stats is a challenge, which in turn makes it mean something because it isnt easy to gain and not everyone can gain much. This is what makes the game a competition.

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