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| Posted by | -LOCKED - Community Input on Challenge/Paperclip Trades |
 Katze (#3)  
Heavenly View Forum Posts  Posted on 2022-08-12 09:33:32 |
Hi, everyone! As mentioned within August 12th's Community Update news, we are aware that part of the community dislikes challenge/paperclip trades appearing in the Trading Center. One particular topic has had a fair bit of discussion from both sides: * ⚔️TwoSwordsClash⚔️ (#122111), "Outlaw "joke" trades of 1 SB" Our stance has generally been that the Trading Center is a player-run "free market". Part of the reason for this is that you, the players, determine the value that items and other assets hold over time. Players are free to try to sell or trade their assets at whatever value they choose, and other players are free to decide whether or not they accept that value. When it comes to moderating challenge/paperclip trades, the main question is: where do we draw the line? At what value does a trade become more than just a paperclip trade? If an arbitrary value is set, then trades will simply be created at a value just above that. If it becomes a matter of simply disallowing any trades entitled "What can I get for _____?", then we essentially remove open-ended offer-based trades. We understand that a big concern is how they flood the Trading Center and push legitimate trades out of view, though we have never moderated the amount of trades any one player can post at one time, or how many of a certain type of trade can exist at the same time. As you can see, moderating these trades isn't a cut-and-dried solution, much as we wish it were. Potential Solutions * We could add the ability to conveniently and instantly hide trades under the "Recent Trades" and "Search Results" listings for trades, without needing to click to view the actual trade, and without needing to block the trade's creator. An additional "Hidden Trades" section could be added to the Trading Center interface in case a trade is hidden by mistake. * There could be an additional option to "Hide All Trades By This Player", as well. This could act as a "soft block" which only prevents you from seeing certain trades, and still allows you to interact with the trade creator. * We could implement a new Stockpile subforum category for "Challenge Trades", where players would be encouraged to advertise their challenges. Players could then set up private trades if they end up receiving a buyer for their trade, rather than publicly listing their trades in the Trading Center beforehand. The downside of this option is then moderating what does and does not belong within that subforum, needing to cancel/remove any publicly-listed challenge trades, and determining what falls under a challenge trade to begin with. We would ideally like to hear whether or not this is something you think might provide added value for you when using the Trading Center. Additionally, if you have thoughts on other possible (manageable) solutions or suggestions on how this type of system could be improved, we're open to hearing these as well. Keep in mind that any solutions tied to moderation would require hard-set definitions that not all players may see eye to eye on. To further clarify: We want your input on how exactly we rule this type of trade - where is the line? Why isn't my 1 SB trade open for any offers allowed? It's a legitimate trade, I am offering something in exchange for an offer. Why would it be considered begging or a challenge/paperclip trade? What if it was 5 SB instead of 1? 10 instead of 5? Who determines whether I'm asking to trade up by offering 1 SB for a Large Leaf? In order to moderate things like this efficiently, we need a concrete determined set of rules about what constitutes a challenge trade. That's what we need your help with. If we implement the second Trading Center idea that some people are suggesting, how do we determine that a trade in the "regular" Trading Center isn't just a misplaced challenge trade? This is the conundrum we're having. This topic will remain open for two weeks, and will be locked on Friday, August 26th, 2022. Once it is locked, our admin team will review it for potential ideas and solutions. We will post an update on the situation as soon as we are able to work one out, if one can be worked out at all—and if we decide not to pursue these trades, we will announce this as well. |
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Michael (#16)
Famous View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 21:41:09 |
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[△] Nadir (#108458)
Prophet View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 21:57:04 |
@Michael (#16) :: Exactly what Angela said. I'm suggesting adding it as a field so users who don't know about this (which I suspect are a lot) can more easily utilize this command. Some users don't notice tool tips, unless it pops up every time that you click the field, which could lead to a new compliant. We already have a lot of fields, I imagine adding 3 exclusion fields wouldn't be too much more: Exclude Keyword, Exclude SB/GB Price, Exclude Item(s). I think that this could be a good middleground. Users get to have their PC/1SB trades, and users who don't want to see them can filter it out. It solves the issue without banning the trades, and puts easier methods of self-regulation in the average user's hands.  0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 12/08/22 @ 21:57:33 by [△] Nadir (#108458) |
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Nocturnal Soul (#280968)
Punk View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 22:20:59 |
I don't think this is nearly as big a problem as it's been made out to be lately. Just causally browsing the trading center I see very few, if any, of these. Of course searching for "1 SB" is going to bring up a bunch of them; that's the point of a search feature. I don't think anything should be done, because the line between what's a "legitimate" trade vs a "joke" is much too subjective. Trying to moderate specific types of trades just because some people think they're annoying is going to become a slippery slope. As mentioned by others, a specific box to exclude search terms might be best. Even though it's apparently already possible to exclude terms, this would be more obvious. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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JustLiam 🐔 [G2 DR Stellar] (#234970) Heavenly View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 22:25:06 |
My take is that the soft block option is kinda harsh. What if someone just has 1 specific trade that annoyed someone, but something else they would've really wanted/paid for? I dunno. It's sorta inconsistent. I really like the idea of a separate channel/subforum for these sorts of things. I myself don't support these trades or interact with them, and it would be nice to be able to just have it out of TC in general. I understand though that this would be tough to moderate and determine what is/what isn't. I still though think that it's the best choice, and if it's able to be refined enough it would work out really well. Plus, this would give those people who do interact/make those trades a place to make NEW challenge trades and be creative without getting hate from people who disagree. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Katze (#3)
Heavenly View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-12 23:53:51 |
To clarify on the soft blocking option since I've picked up on some confusion/concerns about that in the comments, what we're envisioning is a way to hide trades without actually blocking the players that create the trades. Currently, the only way to stop seeing trades that may annoy or bother you is to block the player that created the trade. This shuts off communication with the trade creator entirely, so not only do you not see their trades anymore, but you can't PM them, you can't see their forum topics, you can't see them in chat, etc. The current blocking option also requires you to look at every single trade, then navigate to a player's den page and block them through there, or copy their player ID from the trade listing and add them to your block list. With the soft blocking option, you would be able to immediately hide a trade right then and there when looking at recent trades or search results without needing to actually look at the trade contents itself. The main difference between using the existing blocking system and hiding/soft blocking is that you will still be able to communicate with the player that created the trade if you soft block them or hide their trades. You would have the option to either hide individual trades created by a player, or hide all trades created by a player. So, for example, if Abbey created a bunch of 1 SB trades and I didn't want to see any of them, I could use the soft block "hide all trades from this player" option while still being able to see and talk to Abbey on Lioden. Or, if Abbey just created one 1 SB trade but otherwise had a bunch of other trades I was interested in, I could use the soft block "hide this trade" option, which would still let me see her other trades, buy them out, offer on them, etc., but I wouldn't be able to view her singular 1 SB trade unless I chose to unhide it. It wouldn't show up for me at all when viewing the Trading Center or looking for her trades otherwise. There could be an easy way to unhide trades so that if a trade was hidden by mistake, it could be undone on the same screen without needing to navigate to another page, and there wouldn't be a confirmation prompt when hiding trades since it would have an undo button. There are some kinks that would need to be worked out with that system overall of course, though from the time we've spent monitoring and observing discussions about these trades, we're cautiously optimistic that adding in a very convenient way to stop seeing these trades could hopefully help alleviate some issues surrounding them. It's not a perfect solution and may not really solve the core problem, however, which is why we've created this discussion topic to get further feedback and see if there's anything more we could do. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Taka (#17591)
View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-13 00:37:22 |
I think adding two trade tweaks would solve this problem. 1. add ability to search MINIMUM sb / gb in all tabs, not just currency. add this field for basic, lions, items, beetles. 2. add keyword omission field to all tabs, omitting any desired results, such as filtering "challenge" trades, or any other trend that people are not willing to shovel through. I think this would make trade a lot more navigable all around, not just for ignoring challenge trades, but also for day-to-day functions like searching breed-only, seeking out rare items and decor, etc. eg: I search for a MINIMUM of 20gb buyout trades (all trades more than 20gb buyout will show), with ADDITIONAL omission of keyword "challenge" from searches, making it more accurate for exactly what I am searching for, excluding all the spam. this field I imagine would also be able to omit several searches all at once with the help of a comma. eg: omission keywords: "challege, 1sb to, what can i get" 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 13/08/22 @ 00:40:57 by Taka (#17591) |
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Saff - Kimanjano (#137237)
King of the Jungle View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-13 01:58:27 |
A question, if you choose to block all trades from a player is it just current trades or are future trades included? 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Ninque [HIATUS-ish] (#106221)
Dreamboat of Ladies View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-13 02:46:54 |
As much as I hate veiled begging, I have to agree banning them isn't the way to go. Personally I'd love to see both solution #1 and #2 implemented - both would have a lot of uses besides hiding annoying challenges. I see this as a win for both sides without adding additional headache for the mods with a whole new forums subcategory and leaving deciding what is and what isn't fitting to them. With the amount of "challenge trades" that have been flooding the TC for the past 6 months, I appreciate that we're finally having an official discussion on how to handle them. 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 13/08/22 @ 02:49:17 by 💜 Ninque [Lilac RL Clone] (#106221) |
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Scarecrow G2Stellar🌈💣 (#118629) Heavenly View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-13 03:30:09 |
We have a button for private and public trades, I would suggest a third button, ‘challenge trade’ and a button that allows hiding challenge trades. Alternatively a different area for them, like we have for raffles, they flood the trading center and make it difficult to use. Alternatively just the ability to hide certain keywords in the trade center like, ‘words to exclude: {INPUT}’ because even the ability to filter the words ‘paperclip’ ‘challenge’ ‘what can I get for’ and ‘# sb to’ would really clean things up alternatively a subforum would work. I just don’t want to have to see and sort through them constantly so any way to get them out of my way is fine with me 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 13/08/22 @ 03:32:03 by Scarecrow G3Stellar🌈💣DF (#118629) |
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Tigon Daze (#192313)
View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-13 03:46:05 |
I feel like yeah, either the soft block, but maybe ideally the forum option. I realize there is a challenge in modding the forum, but I don't think these paperclip challenges should be banned outright. I think they can be real fun if run differently, and users can log changes and milestones as well as their end goal this way. And since Sales chat is limited to 10 minute pings, they can still be advertised there, as these things fall within transactions. But all in all, I feel like "What can I get for X" and "1sb to Tigon" challenges (for example lol) are fun for users. The big problem would likely be griefing or begging if their challenge isn't going well. All of this from someone who will likely never participate in one. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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faunatide (#69950)
Majestic View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-13 04:51:40 |
I think adding a world exclusion filter as an actual input box would be a good idea because it would also be useful for situations outside of this scenario as well. It's not clear at the moment that you can add a '-word' filter in the search box and I don't think most people would even have thought to do that, as the majority of people don't even know you can do that in Google searches. It would also be nice to be able to filter out words without having to input a specific search at the same time, though I'm no programmer so I don't know how hard that would be to do. The trade softblock/hiding trades idea would also be a good idea as you would also be able to use that in more situations than this. I don't really like fully blocking people on any website unless it's absolutely necessary as it feels like a last resort option to me. (It just feels a bit harsh to block all forms of communication or the ability to ever interact with this person just because I found something they were doing for fun a bit annoying lol.) Both of these ideas would allow the user to prune out things in the trading center that they find annoying or don't want to see, making the whole experience a lot more streamlined and easier to use. I think having a forum area would be useful as a way for the players that participate in these challenge trades to more easily find people who would actually want to participate in the game. That way, there would be less need for them to be spamming the trade center hoping for someone who wants to participate to see. It would also let them have a dedicated place to show their progress/keep track of how their challenge/game is going. However if this is too tricky to moderate that is understandable. I don't think it would be possible to actually remove them from the trading center as that gets into the issue of trying to determine what would make something a challenge trade vs just trying to see what offers you could get for something. I also don't think outright banning them entirely is really an option as they aren't actually doing anything wrong other than playing a game/challenge that other users find annoying. I don't like the idea of completely banning something just because it's an annoying trend as that sets a precedent that could easily start going too far and would be best to be avoided. (e.g. what if someone finds your particular playstyle annoying and starts trying to get that banned too?) That's why I think the world filter and softblock would be the best options as it allows these users to keep playing their challenge while allowing the users who don't like it to be able to avoid it. The subforum isn't as necessary but I think it would also help them communicate with eachother rather than having to spam the trading center. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Servmouche (#221573)
Total Chad View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-13 07:54:24 |
@ Scarecrow G3Stellar🌈💣DF i totally agree with your first solution. if there was an option to list a trade as a challenge trade similarly to a private/public one & an option to hide all challenge trades i think that would work out well for either side as for me, i don’t think these trades bother me too much. i don’t see them as often enough to bug me in the entire sea of trades on lioden. they aren’t really an issue imo  0 players like this post! Like? |
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Dante ~ Project King [Main] (#80013) Impeccable View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-13 08:10:46 |
@Katze - I think soft blocking would be great generally - for example, for a trade where you offered but were rejected, so you could avoid offering on that trade again. But I don't think it would stop the frustration, as you'd need to then soft block each time you saw one which (though optional) would be a drag 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Dante ~ Project King [Main] (#80013) Impeccable View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-13 08:12:30 |
@Servmouche I agree, a challenge/trade up trade tag would be good. Challenge trades could be fully disabled from the main den page with the other enable/disable buttons. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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[△] Nadir (#108458)
Prophet View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-13 08:20:19 |
I'm not sure I agree with implementing an entire new category into the coding for a trend that might not even exist a year from now. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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